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Quality pushbuttons did work for the smaller yellow Sullivan and the Dynatron. The Dynatron is 100 amp load and locked rotor can go higher than that depending on what it is powered with.

My Sullivan Model 4 used to eat the pushbuttons before I put a solenoid in the battery box to do switching. Model 4 is a 200 amp load.

The pushbuttons used in starters with ATV motors needed for high compression gas engines they won't last at all and solenoid is a must on them. Even the Chinese gas starter model with half the size motor I use on mine fries the pushbutton they come with pretty early on.

Oh man those Sullivan rubber strip switches. Why did they even make those at all. They had nice huge contacts but the switching was so slow and the unpredictable break when released just arced the contacts up so bad they were sticking almost immediately.
 
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I guess mine is the dynatron...I think it had a yellow and black checkered flag on it when it was new. I once had a yellow Sullivan that I tried on 24 volts.... it spun the guts out of the armature!! 🤪 🤪
 
Quality pushbuttons did work for the smaller yellow Sullivan and the Dynatron. The Dynatron is 100 amp load and locked rotor can go higher than that depending on what it is powered with.

My Sullivan Model 4 used to eat the pushbuttons before I put a solenoid in the battery box to do switching. Model 4 is a 200 amp load.

The pushbuttons used in starters with ATV motors needed for high compression gas engines they won't last at all and solenoid is a must on them. Even the Chinese gas starter model with half the size motor I use on mine fries the pushbutton they come with pretty early on.

Oh man those Sullivan rubber strip switches. Why did they even make those at all. They had nice huge contacts but the switching was so slow and the unpredictable break when released just arced the contacts up so bad they were sticking almost immediately.
I took the strip switches apart and cleaned them with contact cleaner and then lubed them will dielectric grease and never had one stick again.
 
I guess mine is the dynatron...I think it had a yellow and black checkered flag on it when it was new. I once had a yellow Sullivan that I tried on 24 volts.... it spun the guts out of the armature!! 🤪 🤪
The Dynatron’s were always white I think or at least the ones I have and see others using are.
 
yes, it was mostly white with a checkered flag strip on it.... it's been like 20+ years ago...
It's an awesome starter... has served me well.

when others couldn't get their boat started at a race, they always would grab my rig !!!
 
i have the dynatron starter with a tidewater handle kit on it, have about 18 years on it with the original button, from cmb purple head 90s to super tight nova rossis 21 long strokes it took them all on and never an issue, maybe 3 years ago went with a finer edge cordless system. great starter
 
Ha!! that's exactly the same one I have...got it
from Tidewater .. as I said, on 24 volts using dual gel cell batteries... super strong... actually have to let the belt slip on .21 motors as it spins them too fast to start .
 
I recon the difference is most of my starting has been big nitro up to 36mm gas singles and inline twin engines. The Dynatron/Makita/Finer edge won't even touch them. Inlines are up to 61cc now and takes a serious amount of torque to start them.
 
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I have been using the napa button with both of the sullivan starters (dynatron, black body) on 20-24v for years. I have never had any failures.

Agreed.... Speedmaster button lasted quite a while, so we'll check that NAPA piece out, and buy an extra, or two, as spares.

Mike, couldn't find any specs on your suggestion, and then stumbled upon this Marine app switch- 12v @ 60A rating....
Do you think it's a stouter switch?.... it's pricier, for sure.

https://www.napaonline.com/en/p/SMEUN42000?impressionRank=4


Thanks!
 
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Tim,
It looks the same. I think the price difference is the rubber cover that it comes with.

Daniel
You are wrong. I = V/R Ohms law. I is current, V is voltage, and R is ohms. If the voltage number goes up and all other values stay the same. Current will reduce.

Mike
 
Correct Mike... I can basically reduce by half all of my switchgear breaker amps and wiring sizes on equipment that runs 440 vac versus 220 vac..

much easier on contactors and the amount of heat built up into my panels etc...
 
Tim,
It looks the same. I think the price difference is the rubber cover that it comes with.

Daniel
You are wrong. I = V/R Ohms law. I is current, V is voltage, and R is ohms. If the voltage number goes up and all other values stay the same. Current will reduce.

Mike

You are mistaken sir.

These starter motors we are talking about on 12 volt draw EXACTLY half of what they do on 24 volt. The amperage goes up when voltage goes up.

Same with say a servo. It will draw more with the LiPo 7.4 volt than it will on 6.6 volt LiFe. The load is the same and increase the voltage and current goes up.

If you send more voltage to a DC motor and do not change nothing about the motor it will draw MORE amperage.

You are mistaking a A/C motor where you are taking the windings that are wired in parallel for low voltage and taking them apart and putting the same windings in series for the high voltage then and only then it will draw 1/2 if it went from 120 low to 240 volt high.

Ok now don't change the windings to high voltage series loop on that motor and leave it wired parallel for 120 and connect it to 240 and see what kind of amps it draws. Be ready for a surprise when it draws many times what it did on 120. Of course the same breaker would not even hold it long enough to burn it up properly. Lol.

Increase voltage with same resistance load and amperage increases.

You can't change the wiring on winding of the starter motor. So again increase voltage you increase the amperage. The extra rpm and torque is never free. It comes from the increase in voltage that in turn is also increasing the amperage draw.

And also with A/C motor is can draw less with a higher voltage within the range of acceptable voltages like when a 230 volt motor is run on 208 versus on 240 volt. 240 volt will usually draw less current. But that is because it was designed for 230 volt. If it was designed for 208 and you ran it on 240 current would go up too.

Been working with a/c and d/c circuits for 40 years as a licensed electrician.

Maybe a spec from DC starter motor will help you revisit your thoughts about this.

12 volt draw is 100 amp
24 volt draw is 200 amp

ae4c5i5.jpg


This is a copy and paste,

In a basic DC circuit with a given resistance for the load, if the voltage drops, so does the current. This is what Ohm’s Law says:

V = IR,

where
V is voltage in Volts
I is current in Amperes (Amps)
and
R is resistance in Ohms.

This relationship can be written in two other forms, each isolating one of the 3 variables:

V / R = I,

and

V / I = R.

As an exercise, try using the second of these (V / R = I) with any arbitrary value of V and R to obtain a current I.
Next, using the same value for R, try a lower value for V. You’ll see that I is smaller as well.

In order for current to increase when voltage drops, the circuit resistance R must decrease by more than the voltage.

Correct Mike... I can basically reduce by half all of my switchgear breaker amps and wiring sizes on equipment that runs 440 vac versus 220 vac..

much easier on contactors and the amount of heat built up into my panels etc...

Sounds like a good idea except you must realize if you go 440 volt you need all 600 volt equipment. 600 volt equipment is 4 times as much money and twice the size. Then for any low voltage you need in the 120/240 volt range you would need to step your 440 back down on your dime paying for the transformers and switch gear to do that. The power company usually will only supply one type voltage in. All motors would need to have 600 volt starters and disconnects.
 
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You know what Daniel, I am wrong. Wasted and I are electricians. We do have a drop in the amps when it comes to running circuits. We can put more load on circuits if we step up the voltage. The problem that we did not take into effect was that we change the wiring on motors when we go up in voltage. I also assume the electronic ballast for lighting do the same thing but electronically. We change 2 values in ohms law equation. V and R.

I actually did the math on a rebutal post I was going to send. When I did the math, I saw the problem. DOH
Mike
 
You know what Daniel, I am wrong. Wasted and I are electricians. We do have a drop in the amps when it comes to running circuits. We can put more load on circuits if we step up the voltage. The problem that we did not take into effect was that we change the wiring on motors when we go up in voltage. I also assume the electronic ballast for lighting do the same thing but electronically. We change 2 values in ohms law equation. V and R.

I actually did the math on a rebutal post I was going to send. When I did the math, I saw the problem. DOH
Mike

Mike,
No worries happy to try to explain even when it is difficult to explain.

This one was a killer self contained 22.2 volt LiPo powered starter setup with relay doing the switching.

TqUKK2G.jpg
 
You know what Daniel, I am wrong. Wasted and I are electricians. We do have a drop in the amps when it comes to running circuits. We can put more load on circuits if we step up the voltage. The problem that we did not take into effect was that we change the wiring on motors when we go up in voltage. I also assume the electronic ballast for lighting do the same thing but electronically. We change 2 values in ohms law equation. V and R.

I actually did the math on a rebutal post I was going to send. When I did the math, I saw the problem. DOH
Mike

Regarding permanent magnet DC motors, in particular the Dynatron, this is what Sullivan specifies-


The Dynatron Starter.
Features a machined aluminum drive cone with pulley groove, 2.50″ diameter steel body and gold end caps. 12 or 24 VDC operation, maximum 80 amps. 340 in-oz (240 N-cm) of stall torque at 12V, 680 in-oz (480 N-cm) at 24V. 4800 no load RPM at 12V, 9600 no load RPM at 24V.

Notice the terminology '80 amps MAXIMUM', and also note that no load rpm doubles with DC voltage doubling, as does STALL TORQUE.
Amperage INCREASES with LOAD.

The actual speed and current is normally determined by the LOAD on the motor. It's not always safe to generalize and say the current will do this or that when the voltage is changed. It depends how the load responds to the increased rpm.

Now, back to the NAPA push button switches.... Mike, the initial switch you proposed is switch ONLY- NO rubber boot. However, the same switch is available w/boot for $16.69.
The Marine switch I proposed, though appearing identical externally, obviously has more robust internals, like the silver contacts and a 60A
rating, as specified. There was no rating given on NAPA site for your proposal. Generally, Marine electrical's are more robust than Automotive.

OK, again, thanks for the input. I think we're done here.
 
Sounds like a good idea except you must realize if you go 440 volt you need all 600 volt equipment. 600 volt equipment is 4 times as much money and twice the size. Then for any low voltage you need in the 120/240 volt range you would need to step your 440 back down on your dime paying for the transformers and switch gear to do that. The power company usually will only supply one type voltage in. All motors would need to have 600 volt starters and disconnects.


I think what we are missing is, when going from 12 to 24 volts, we are not internally changing the coil wiring inside the motor.. As Tim stated, the load will determine the amperage based on the load applied... I assume that the Sullivan motor is wound to perform good on 12v or it would smoke due to low voltage .... switching to 24 volts gives us plenty of rpm which is converted to torque as we pull up on the belt.
once the motor spins, the torque applied drops as well as the amp load.

Being a DC motor with brushes and magnets a lot of AC rules that I am exposed to on a daily basis with refrigeration work, don't always apply...I have years of experience with transport refrigeration ( Thermo King ) that use many complex AC and DC circuits within the same unit... So my experience is all over the map. I could write a book on some of the wiring nightmares I have encountered over the past 35+ years... o_O
 
Oh absolutely the load is also everything. A stalled motor on 12 volt can draw more than a 24 volt giving it enough oomph to spin.

That is all Sullivan was explaining you must factor load too.

But generally with similar moderate load that 12 and 24 volt will both spin the 24 volt will draw a bunch more but will also of course be spinning it with more force and rpm..

That spinning of the starter and pulling the belt tight is thing of the past with modern self contained ATV starter type starters that I build. You can do that if you want but don't really recommend it even. They are high torque low rpm starting motors and they have the torque to start any engine we put in gas boats from a dead stop even 35cc singles and 61cc inlines. Like butter and start all day long with the battery that is attached to the starter.
 
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