Ban on Two Stroke Engines

[GTR]

Hi guy's,

When checking out the UIM F1 tunnel site I noticed that there is talk about all two strokes being banned for environmental reasons. Now this doesn't say where but gives the impression that it will be a worldwide trend, certainly Europe. It states ALL two strokes will be banned eventually. Where does this leave us and the entire industry that supports modelling?

Your thoughts, or knowledge on this matter.

GT ??? >

 

[_laxmasta2039]

GR,

that sounds like a big step in the right direction for the enviroment, but i dont think it'll become a reality for quite some time-also, i think it will be focused more towards weedeaters, lawnmowers, dirt bikes, etc. than tiny little engines like the ones in our nitro boats......hopefully K&B, Rossi, or some other big manufacture will take the initiative and come up w/ some kind of air filter to stick on the end of a tuned pipe that will become mandantory- that way if they do end up being banned, there will be chance for an excpetion as far as model boat engines.

joe

 

[Mad Max]

Well this is the direction that the 2 stroke emissions police have taken,instead of allowing manufacturers to develop technology to reduce emissions,they want to elimanate 2 stroke engines altogether.You don't have to stand and take the beating join in and help fight these clowns.Follow the lead taken by the snowmobile industry,you can search the net for the places where to put in opinion and support.

Recently the more intelligent minds scored a major victory over the nitwits with President Bush signing a bill to allow snowmobiles access to Yellowstone, under the clinton adminstration the were virtualy banned from the park.

Max

 

[Hurricane]

>

 

I think that all out board 2 strokes are to be replaced with 4 cycles by the year 2005!! That is the last date I heard, but you can still use your presant motors. This is why you see so many 4 cycle motors starting to come out. Shouldn't affect our nitro motors but the gas guys may be in trouble. This info came from our local marina that is trying to sell me a new outboard.

 

[GTR]

Hi guy's

Don't understand how this won't effect nitro runners as they are two stroke and generally louder and smellier than weed eater boats. I think the FIM site said something about outlawed at the end of 2004 - this is not very far away.

Does the industry think this is not going to effect us? I think indirectly this had something to do with a famous someone from this board giving up boating (temporarily anyway)

Surely there are more people who know somethin on the board.

GT ???

 

[TomMoorehouse]

tha AMA orginization should know what is going on??

 

[Gene Gillman]

Well I kinda addressed that topic on "2 Strokes and the EPA" on page 6. There is heavy legislation goin on and the powers that be are not really sayin much either way. The topic has been perposed on the ban. What to watch for is if they add it to a another bill and it passes without the coverage it would get if it was just by itself.

As far as myself, the "local yokels" and 'county mounties" have this noise thing goin on and I just got a belly full of their bull.

Gene ;D

 

[_laxmasta2039]

i think i'll ask K&B or OS what they know about this or are planning to do, hopefully it will be to reduce the emissions or harmful content of emissions from our beloved little powerplants enough so that we can be assured that either

a) we can continue to use 2-strokes with some limitations/modifications, or

B) engines that use the same price range and basic setup, fuel, glow plugs, etc. as the generic 2-stroke nitro except in 4-stroke......... if that can happen, im all for the ban- anything to save the enviroment that doesnt affect us too much is great. whadya guys think?

joe

 

[GTR]

Hi guy's

Although I know this subject has been touched on before, and I understand that the US EPA is moving in this direction. Not to suggest that the US is not the entire world I am talking about a possible world wide ban on 2 strokes. Other elements of RC sports have already started down this path - pattern and to a lesser extent Heli's. However, as an example of the pressure that is being applied in Japan if you run Heli's they must have no visible smoke (this happens with about 6% oil). Hammer might be in a good position to talk about this on the boating scene. I would expect a move away from high nitro fuels in an attempt to lower emmissions. Either way it won't matter much if there is a worldwide movement to do away with the much loved 2 stroke. :'(

GT

 

[CKD]

Nitro is a very clean burning fuel. A two stroke nitro burner has less of an environmental impact than a four stroke gasoline burner.

 

[Hurricane]

Alcohol and peanut oil are not the biggest concern of the EPA, but the PWC, and pleasure boats for sure. Plus we are not putting our exhaust into the water. We don't pump our bilge water into the lakes and streams. When I was racing Limited Hydros there where several race sites we had to drain our boats into buckets and take it with us. That was 15 years ago. I would hope that the APBA, IMPBA, NAMBA are watching this!!!

 

[GTR]

Hi guy's

All your coments are valid indeed and while I might agree alcohol (nitro??) are clean buring fuels the problem lies in the 2 strokes use of oil for cooling/lubrication. The issue is really that the unburnt oil is showing as visible pollution and as an oily slick in the water. Take a look at a boat that has just stopped running and see the oil film on the water behind it. These are the real (perceived) problems - They are quite quickly seeing the demise of 2 stroke MCycles, Jetskis and outboards. When was the last time you saw a newly released 2 Stroke bike? I won't even get in to the issue of noise when the US seems reluctant to embrace rubber mounts and muffled pipes. I know there are those that do and I think you are helping everyone's cause.....but judging from the magazines, pictures on the forums, and other discussion they are not the majority.

I am not saying this is going to happen overnight but I think it might be here sooner than expected. I love 2 Strokes and suggest everybody do whatever you can to reduce you environmental impact and visibility to those that have no understanding of this sport.

cheers

GT

 

[hg-md]

I am fairly up on this subject by profession, and as of now, the EPA is not outlawing 2 strokes for consumers to use. They are implimenting rules for manufactures of 2 stroke products to reduce emissions on thier products. The direction that this has made most 2 stroke producers go is to 4 stroke for a quick fix. There are clean and efficient 2 stroke products out there such as direct fuel injection used by numerous manufacturers. There are direct fuel injected outboards capable of equal emissions as a 4 stroke, and use less fuel. I do not know of any implementation of emmisions rules to effect "model motors". I would assume it would effect weed eater motors as they have a larger usage in consumer products such as weed eaters. The EPA is not banning these items that are already out and in use, you just cannot manufacture and sell new ones that do not meet EPA emissions policies after the mandate.

The only exception to this is in California. They have a group called CARB (California Air Resources Board) who have successfully implemented a complete ban on non low emissions (conventional carb and EFI) 2 strokes for marine use. I am not sure on the particulars of this legislation, or if it is in effect yet.

Question for those of you in California: Does this legislation effect R/C boats?

 

[_laxmasta2039]

judging from what's been said, the castor oil and alcohol dont seem to be what the EPA's worried about, leaving an oil residue seems to be the only problem- i think it will be much easier to eliminate this problem than if the fuel exhaust was the problem- the oil in the exhaust is the thickest and heaviest part, so it would be the easiest to filter out.......like GTR said, i think we should put alot of effort into filtering or containing the harmful residue, and let our actions speak for ourselves.

joe

 

[Propjockey]

Is castor oil biodegradeable? It comes from castor beans, right? Not petroleum based? Motorcycles, weedeaters, etc.,etc. use petroleum based two stroke oil. Alcohol and nitro evaporate. Would this help our position as modelers?

 

[_laxmasta2039]

Castor Beans....i thought it came from fish ??? :-

either way, it must be bio-degradeabler- both fish and beans are!! ;D

yes, i think that helps our position, like GTR said it's the oil content that's an enviromental no-no.

joe

 

[Propjockey]

Naw, you're thinking of cod liver oil. ( :-X)

Hey, I wonder if THAT'S ever been used as an engine lubricant? Imagine the smell--BURNED cod liver oil!

 

[_laxmasta2039]

oh.......thought they both came from fish [cod-liver and castor]

maybe i should use cod-live oil, and then win the race by default!!

["uugh!! what's that smell? im leaving!!" "me too!!"

"sorry guys, just my new secret engine lube doing it's job..."]

joe

 

[MikeP]

Here is what I don't understand. The number one cause of air pollution in the US is forest fires. The same tree huggers that want to ban 2 strokes are fighting the forest service, they want to let it burn.

There is a big pond in my state called Lake Powell, Personal water craft use ended on Nov 5 2002 until the environmental analysis (EIS) is completed.

-MikeP

 

[Marc_Paulais]

Hi GTR,

could you give us the link to this UIM F1 tunnel site? So we could check what is said about that.

As a european, I have never heard of those new noise rules...

Thanks

Marc