AQ 36-56-2030 (UL-1) MOTOR

[HTV Boats]

P-spec has been a class that has been run for a few years and FE racing has not been setting any attendance records.

Mic

Mic,

With all due respect.

If you are speaking of your local area then please say so because that is certainly not the case in other areas of the country.

What continues to amaze me is that some of you guys think that this is all brand new and none of this has been looked at by the guys that have been racing FE for years.

There are good reasons why we (seasoned FE racers) have landed on what we have, and our FE numbers are growing.

If you think a Fred Sanford class of O/B Tunnels will change the face of FE in YOUR area then as it has been said, by all means go for it. But please understand if we don't replace our programs with it.

IMO With the path you are wanting to go down you should be promoting a local " HK/HP-P Class" with a max $$ limit since that's where the issue is.

Like you, if I have stepped on any toes here I apologise in advance, that is / was not my intention.

Good luck with it fellas!!

Doug

Doug,

If we don't step on a few toes this will get boring. I stated earlier that to anyone traveling having an $80 AQ motor in their box will not be a hardship. I hope we all keep an open mind to changes. I never said this motor should be instantly approved nationally and if it showed to be a distinct advantage I would be the first to non approve it. I guess you take acception to the statement, spec not setting attendance records. In our district we are working to get FE into our mainstream races where they have been ignored to this point. I couldn't tell you where you could race a non tunnel spec boat other than your Gran Prix series. It is a well kept secret. I think the SOWEGA race has as many tunnels entered as the other 3 spec classes. I know there are 9 tunnels entered in our last tunnel race plus some others in open FE and open tunnel. I expect we will have quite e few more entered before race day and the predominant motor will be AQ. We are trying some Sanfordian things and if that brings in more racers so be it. Other area's have different needs. I know most of the northern Distrct 6 guys and have raced there in recent years. When you have small numbers you have to think Sanfordian sometimes. I am not pulling in a total different direction but seem to be ruffling establishment feathers,.Sorry to offend seasoned FE racers with possible new ideas. Good reason to just stay with tunnels as they have historically been the dormat that real racers enter this hobby on and move up to real competition. Lamont and Grady are still fun guys to race with. There goes the neighborhood.

Fred

 

[Doug Smock]

Lamont and Grady are still fun guys to race with.

Fred

Yes sir they are!!!

"P- Sanfordian O/B Tunnel", Mic I think I like it!!! :lol:

Have a great weekend my friend!!

Smock

 

[Tim leyde]

Bill

With all do respect. I personal do NOT think allowing another motor of equivalent specs. in OUR local club would hurt ANYTHING. I feel we should talk to the people that will be involved, or simply run a test on the motors ( same hull just switching motors out ). Yes, the AQ is the most go to motor at this time and I do have one one. However I will NOT promote only one or two manufactures when there are others out. If this means me not racing FE this year, so be it. We as a local club can make ore own RULES do to IMPBA not currently having any. It upsets me when people do not have an open mind for change. Not all of us are going to travel to other districts to race so why not get the attendance up at our local club. By allowing a less expensesive motor for use. If I travel I by all means will comply with other clubs local rules.

We will have to discuss this as a club.

TL

 

[HTV Boats]

Yep as much as we don't need another class we will have enough boats to run P-spec national and the P-Sanford local class. Thanks Doug see some good comes out of adversity.

McFred

 

[osracer]

You guys can do as you wish. I am out of the mix. Getting to old to push a rope up a hill. I hope things work out for you guys and your new class works for you. I would like nothing better than to see it produce a ton of new members. Bill

 

[Bill Britton]

I think a lot of this is being overblown.

There are no set rules for P-LTD in Impba. Local clubs/districts are free to organize classes as they wish. The STRA tunnel series is sanction independent and can organize classes as we wish.

Namba is the only sanctioning body that limits anything at a national level.

The bottom line is run what is legal in your club/district/sanction. If you have a desire to add additional hardware to the approved list of motors, submit it for approval using standard and appropriate means. If it fly's congratulations. If it does not then so be it.

While I do not like to be beholden to a single manufacturer for anything, there are times when it is unavoidable. And when manufacturers raise prices beyond reasonable limits, consider other sources if they are available. Be aware that price should not be the only factor in determining approved hardware. Availability and quality should be taken into consideration as well. Of course how heavily these factors are weighed are determined by the size of the group being affected.

In closing, if a motor is closely matched to other already approved motors then it could be reviewed based on its merits if it was to be submitted for consideration, but price should not be a deciding factor. In the LTD class, small variances in motor properties can have a significant advantage or disadvantage that the unknowing may not be aware of. Haphazardly approving new equipment for the sake of price alone is irresponsible. Yet blindly adhering to things as they are without question is equally stagnating

Finally, Mr. Peterson. I disagree with your idea of leaving things alone for the sake of not creating dissension. While I do thank you for your years of dedicated service to the betterment of our hobby, I would rather believe that any ideas or suggestions, no matter how frivolous or trivial to you, should be heard. This is the natural order of evolution if you will. Neither you, nor I, or anyone else for that matter, are a last word for anything. To demean or casually shun anyone for suggesting something different than what you agree with is purely egotistical, condescending, and displays an 'I know better than you attitude'. There is always someone who can have a better idea or way of doing anything. For instance, I always charge my batteries outside of the boat in accordance with nationally sanctioned rules. It also just seems to be common sense. But that's just me.

/B

 

[DPeterson]

Tim and Bill

If the difference between growing your club or not is a $20.00 bill on a motor you have much bigger challenges than spec equipment.

Good Luck.

Doug

 

[Flyguy55]

" P-spec has been a class that has been run for a few years and FE racing has not been setting any attendance records. FE tunnels seem to be the exception and are the fastest growing of the spec classes offered. This potential growth will spill over to P & Q tunnels shortly. "

Actually there are several places I race where P spec racing is quite well attended , where P spec tunnels are not the biggest class .

Some places they can't make a tunnel class .

The Pueblo CO FE club has 2 FE races a month , I believe they race 7 or 8 classes ..I haven't been able to attened for awhile Mostly P limited . LSO , LSH , 10th scale , crackerbox . Last I heard they didn't have enough OPC's to make a class . Bad for me , OPC is my favorite class.

I attended a Labor Dayweekend race in Carroltin TX near Dallas at a NAMBA Dist 7 race . 4 FE classes, but mostly gas . FE classes were well attended . 3 had 9 to 10 boats entered . The biggest class was P spec sport hydro . no tunnels . Dist 7s biggest P spec class is a rigger class . Tunnels couldnt make a class with out combining a 3.5 mod tunnel all year.

The first weekend this month I attended a Dist 19 race in Tempe AZ , again 2 heats of P spec sport hydro and P mono .

Come to WW 8 this year in Scottsdale AZ in Feb. All the P spec classes will be well attended , Usually over 100 boats . It will be interesting to see if tunnels are as big as other classes . Doug will be there

I think P limited classes are growing faster then you know .

BTW , I went to the Orlando FL Winter Nats last Jan ,and entered 4 FE classes including P limited OPC . None of them made .

I've raced a lot of things in my life , Go Carts , Sports cars , full size flatbottoms and tunnels ,and a little stock class pylon racing ect .Nitro and gas rc boats for many yrs .

P limited racing is by far one of the least expensive things you can motor race competively , even when the price of motors increases .

Dick Roberts

 

[Don Ferrette]

Well I'm going to add just one thing to the mix .........

Here in IMPBA D12 and our D13 neighbors we have had really good growth in the P-Limited classes running the AQ motor/ESC set up and as far I know not one person has burned down that combo in the last couple years in either district. If it's just a little more coin for a matched motor/ESC set that is dependable and keeps boaters on the water then I'm all over that. B)

 

[Tim leyde]

I think a lot of this is being overblown.
There are no set rules for P-LTD in Impba. Local clubs/districts are free to organize classes as they wish. The STRA tunnel series is sanction independent and can organize classes as we wish.

Namba is the only sanctioning body that limits anything at a national level.

The bottom line is run what is legal in your club/district/sanction. If you have a desire to add additional hardware to the approved list of motors, submit it for approval using standard and appropriate means. If it fly's congratulations. If it does not then so be it.

While I do not like to be beholden to a single manufacturer for anything, there are times when it is unavoidable. And when manufacturers raise prices beyond reasonable limits, consider other sources if they are available. Be aware that price should not be the only factor in determining approved hardware. Availability and quality should be taken into consideration as well. Of course how heavily these factors are weighed are determined by the size of the group being affected.

In closing, if a motor is closely matched to other already approved motors then it could be reviewed based on its merits if it was to be submitted for consideration, but price should not be a deciding factor. In the LTD class, small variances in motor properties can have a significant advantage or disadvantage that the unknowing may not be aware of. Haphazardly approving new equipment for the sake of price alone is irresponsible. Yet blindly adhering to things as they are without question is equally stagnating

Finally, Mr. Peterson. I disagree with your idea of leaving things alone for the sake of not creating dissension. While I do thank you for your years of dedicated service to the betterment of our hobby, I would rather believe that any ideas or suggestions, no matter how frivolous or trivial to you, should be heard. This is the natural order of evolution if you will. Neither you, nor I, or anyone else for that matter, are a last word for anything. To demean or casually shun anyone for suggesting something different than what you agree with is purely egotistical, condescending, and displays an 'I know better than you attitude'. There is always someone who can have a better idea or way of doing anything. For instance, I always charge my batteries outside of the boat in accordance with nationally sanctioned rules. It also just seems to be common sense.

/B

Bill

I agree, AMEN.

TL

 

[jeepers]

. Last I heard they didn't have enough OPC's to make a class . Bad for me , OPC is my favorite class.

there is enough OPC in the Pueblo Co FE club to make a class now! ( I think.... if everyone kept their boats!) my OPC is being tested tomorrow.

 

[Mark Leyde]

You guys can do as you wish. I am out of the mix. Getting to old to push a rope up a hill. I hope things work out for you guys and your new class works for you. I would like nothing better than to see it produce a ton of new members. Bill

Bill, what do you mean by this? What new class??? Do not throw in the towel so soon. I believe that we only raced the run what you have FE's at 2 races this year. Tim and I will both have a P Spec limited tunnels next year. Yes with AQ2030 motors. We already have them. I think we will still be running mixed hull heats of FE's at are races. I do not think that everyone in the TCMBC, that is interested in FE is going to run right out and get a P sport hydro (UL1) a P tunnel, and a P mono. Let's just take it one step at a time and see where it go's.

Mark

 

[Flyguy55]

Thanks Jeepers , Thats good to hear. P limited is alive and well in Southern CO .

 

[Mike Luszcz]

I'm going to be a bit comical with this, so no one get pissy. This is what happens when seasoned nitro tunnel racers who have had their pic of any modified motor setup they can think of to make them faster has been the thought process for 30 years. The simple fact is the new FE converted nitro guys cannot stand having dead equal power setups. Hell even the stock nitro tunnel class is a joke cause there ain't a stock nitro engine in the water! It blows their minds that this has been the rules. I have tried to get these guys interested in FE tunnels for years with many build threads and tests to spark interest and only recently have they tried it and now feel like it's something they need to reinvent the rules on. Why is 50-55mph with a limited setup not enough???? I have yet to understand that. It's hard enough to push a 21 size tunnel that fast in any kind of wind, so why are 60+ mph setups needed? This system has worKed and grown the FE classes beyond belief, and a simple few who are upset at $20 are complaining. Guys, you piss away $20 every time you filled up a nitro fuel tank, I just don't get how anyone can complain about it. Heck a stock OS is what $400??? I just can't believe how little tolerance there is in keeping a system working. Once you guys get what you want, and remove the great structure these classes have had YOU CAN NEVER GET THAT BACK. Think long and hard about what you are wanting to do before you screw it up for everyone else. Ok so maybe this was not so comical, but it just pisses me off how this has been a recurring theme. Just go back to nitro if you have no respect for a class that puts driving in almost full control. You want an advantage? design a faster more efficient hull. That has been my stand on the issue of faster p-limited tunnel racing. Bash away as it really doesn't bother me to defend something so good and pure. Mike

 

[Bill Britton]

I'm going to be a bit comical with this, so no one get pissy. This is what happens when seasoned nitro tunnel racers who have had their pic of any modified motor setup they can think of to make them faster has been the thought process for 30 years. The simple fact is the new FE converted nitro guys cannot stand having dead equal power setups. Hell even the stock nitro tunnel class is a joke cause there ain't a stock nitro engine in the water! It blows their minds that this has been the rules. I have tried to get these guys interested in FE tunnels for years with many build threads and tests to spark interest and only recently have they tried it and now feel like it's something they need to reinvent the rules on. Why is 50-55mph with a limited setup not enough???? I have yet to understand that. It's hard enough to push a 21 size tunnel that fast in any kind of wind, so why are 60+ mph setups needed? This system has worKed and grown the FE classes beyond belief, and a simple few who are upset at $20 are complaining. Guys, you piss away $20 every time you filled up a nitro fuel tank, I just don't get how anyone can complain about it. Heck a stock OS is what $400??? I just can't believe how little tolerance there is in keeping a system working. Once you guys get what you want, and remove the great structure these classes have had YOU CAN NEVER GET THAT BACK. Think long and hard about what you are wanting to do before you screw it up for everyone else. Ok so maybe this was not so comical, but it just pisses me off how this has been a recurring theme. Just go back to nitro if you have no respect for a class that puts driving in almost full control. You want an advantage? design a faster more efficient hull. That has been my stand on the issue of faster p-limited tunnel racing. Bash away as it really doesn't bother me to defend something so good and pure. Mike

No bashing here.

You make an excellent point.

Although it should be noted that you have little experience or exposure to racing, and therefore do not know all of the aspects or mentalities of it.

/B

 

[HTV Boats]

I'm going to be a bit comical with this, so no one get pissy. This is what happens when seasoned nitro tunnel racers who have had their pic of any modified motor setup they can think of to make them faster has been the thought process for 30 years. The simple fact is the new FE converted nitro guys cannot stand having dead equal power setups. Hell even the stock nitro tunnel class is a joke cause there ain't a stock nitro engine in the water! It blows their minds that this has been the rules. I have tried to get these guys interested in FE tunnels for years with many build threads and tests to spark interest and only recently have they tried it and now feel like it's something they need to reinvent the rules on. Why is 50-55mph with a limited setup not enough???? I have yet to understand that. It's hard enough to push a 21 size tunnel that fast in any kind of wind, so why are 60+ mph setups needed? This system has worKed and grown the FE classes beyond belief, and a simple few who are upset at $20 are complaining. Guys, you piss away $20 every time you filled up a nitro fuel tank, I just don't get how anyone can complain about it. Heck a stock OS is what $400??? I just can't believe how little tolerance there is in keeping a system working. Once you guys get what you want, and remove the great structure these classes have had YOU CAN NEVER GET THAT BACK. Think long and hard about what you are wanting to do before you screw it up for everyone else. Ok so maybe this was not so comical, but it just pisses me off how this has been a recurring theme. Just go back to nitro if you have no respect for a class that puts driving in almost full control. You want an advantage? design a faster more efficient hull. That has been my stand on the issue of faster p-limited tunnel racing. Bash away as it really doesn't bother me to defend something so good and pure. Mike

This from the guy who pissed and moaned about Charleston and never showed up. That turned more people off than you know. Yep you finally hit a nerve. What races have you attended and competed in? Maybe 30 years of competing was wasted We come in and start trying to grow competition and have not changed classes. Spec is stil, there alive and well. If we didn't come along and shake a few trees and leave you to grow things well we have seen how that works. If you can't understand the desire to push the envelope so be it. Your massive growth is 3 boats to 5 boats. We had 7 Spec tunnels at a club race last month in Riverview and had not Bill fought to get them on the class list and a few others calling people and beating the troops out there would not have been a class. OH yeah spec monos and hydros made the event also Thank Bill for that. See what the numbers are at the tunnel champs next year.(5 last spring) when seasoned tunnel racers show up in force. Some of us even dare to run open classes where speeds and the challenge increases. Have not ducked spec competion. Went to the FE Nats never raced an FE tunnel with two boats and held our own, Did not win the event but won heats and Jay set the low time record with a boat I rigged two days before the race. When you have actually raced a class your opinion might have some weight.

No one is stopping racing over $20. Just kind of hard to say to a guy you need to buy an $90 controller and $80 motor and there is an under $100 combo out there that could do the same thing. You think that rules that have been in place for a few years are written in stone and should just not be questioned? Maybe some people that have been around a while also have opinions.

Your point about Sport 21 being a joke is again from a guy who has never raced the class. The fact that OS has almost a monopoly on the class and came out with a newer more expensive motor should reinforce that you don't give one manufacturer that much power. If you want a true level power do a random hand out motor. Spec FE is more than just a motor it is setup,prop and driving skill. There are a lot of great guys running FE boats that just don't or have not had the opportunity for competiton. Some of us tunnel guys are fanatics and it comes from being the underdog so many years.

Forgot we are being comical here :unsure: h34r:

Fred

 

[Tim leyde]

I will say it for the last time. When I made the post I simply wanted to know WHY the AQ 2030 motor jumped up in price $20. I now found out WHY (material).

Someone mentioned a EQUIVALENT motor OPTION for HALF the price (witch I think is a great idea and will test). Now everyone let's get ONE thing straight I really could give a SH*T about $20!

My point is there are other OPTIONS, let's try them. We all don't drive just FORDS and CHEVROLET!!! NO, its NOT about trying to have an advantage, simply another option.

I'm done on this thread.

TL

 

[Mike Luszcz]

Bill, again being nice, i do not feel my amount of race expose should have anything to do with the rules in question. You only have around a years experience in FE do you not? It's a simple case of driving competitively with equal setups and what great thinking it was to get FE classes set up this way. I see the hardcore nitro tunnel racers approaching FE boats as they should be cheap toys and scoffing at the idea of a $20 more expensive motor as a kick in the face when they would not question spending $600 on a nova setup. It's a almost like they are messing with FE boats cause it's something to do cause they are bored and would never give the class the respect of it's matching nitro class. I may be viewing that wrong, but I just get that gut feeling that it's a bit of a joke. I will say I myself may not have much overall experience, but I have people in place that thoroughly test the tunnels I build, and the theories I have about them. Sometimes having a support system like that benefits a product more because you have all types of drivers give input, and adjust accordingly. If it was not for me owning, driving and testing almost every 21 tunnel made, figuring out what didn't work and adjusting, the 295 might not exist. I have been running RC boats longer than some people may realize, just not at public races. Water and wind are always factors in decisions being made. I get the inexperienced racer comment a lot, and I guess it gets old. For someone like John Otto and Randy Premo to notice the NS295 and talk to Dick about it in a positive manner tells me I am going in the right direction. At least I think so! mike

 

[Bill Britton]

Mike,

I was not downing you at all. I agree with most of what you said.

Part of the reason I jumped in FE was because it was cheaper. In the Stock tunnel class we have one manufacturer that holds a monopoly and raises prices at will for no apparent reason. This burns the $h1t out of me. I do not want to see this happen in the FE LTD classes as well.

Even if the motors cost twice as much, I would still buy them and race. But I am allowed to gripe about it. $20 dollars is not going to come even close to stopping me from buying anything. Truth is, if I want something, I don't care how much it costs. I may gripe, but I'm gonna get it.

Noting that you have little racing experience is not derogatory in any way. It's just a fact. We were all there once. But rules for racing should be made by those who race.

As far as nitro guys thinking FE's are toy boats, I think you are correct. Till they get their azz whooped by one!

For far to long FE guys have been putting all this power on old and outdated hulls. That is now changing, and the nitro guys had better take notice.

/B

 

[RodneyPierce]

Tim, you guys might have another couple of P-Spec tunnels next year. Looks like Marty is thinking of making one, and I might make one also. Wont ever shift all the way over to the FE stuff, but might have to make a couple more tunnels to try and add to your class.