Andy Brown's Impressive F Hydro running 0% Nitro!

[NOVALTD]

Andy: Is it fair to say that your K-90 ran only 10 percent slower in speed then if it had 40 percent nitro? So if you reduced the weight of the boat by 20 percent ,raised the compression ratio along with reporting the cylinder lengthen the pipe and re-proping the boat you would be with everyone else in performance for the same class? Thanks Dan McCormick

 

[Andy Brown]

Dan, The K-90 was in an 80 boat. The C/R was very high. Engine had very big ports and big carb for more air. Longer pipe and smaller prop.

At that point the boat was probably 10-15% down on speed. However we only spent one day at the pond getting it tuned up.

I'm sure that all of the varibles were not optimized, so in the end, yes, it could be as fast as an average high nitro set up.

It will never be as fast as a optimal high nitro set up.

A Top Fuel dragster is a good 20% faster than an Alcohol dragster.

 

[NOVALTD]

Andy: When Dan Gold ran scale in the mid nineties he ran the second day of heat racing on 10% nitro at the Palmbeach race. The first day he was running 40-50%. There was only 3-5 mph reduction in speed. His boat was district 3 champ when he ran if you recall. You got to remember that Dans budwiser was 18 lbs running a small 50 & 69 wheel. He also ran high head clearance 16-18 thou so he wound not blow the cheap K&B 1L plugs. It seems to me that a obese 18 lb boat cut down to 13-14lbs ,a reduction in wetted surface area, some head and port work done and some prop work would easily make up the 3-5 mph loss and cut the average fuel bill down by 50%. Of course you still have to be a good driver. Nobody plays and experiments with FAI and/or 10% Nitro because of the additional work it takes to optimize the setup. Pouring liquid nitro in the tank is a lot easier for speed and torque increase and thats why everybody runs higher nitro. Until someday someone will get the combination correct and puff the competition running FAI or 10-15% nitro. When seeing is believing than most racers will start to convert over to low nitro because they know it can be done.

Remember Jack only runs 40% nitro on suction and nobody beats him. If the tether guys in Europe can run 120-130mph IN A CIRCLE on FAI why can't we IF WE RE-ENGINEER THE BOATS AND SETUPS AND DO THE RESEARCH? IT TAKES A DEDICATED PEOPLE TO MAKE IT HAPPEN. ---------- DAN

 

[Robert Pickard]

I guess i didnt beat Jack, oh then why do i have high points trophy for sport40 i beat him alot on 40%

 

[Andy Brown]

Andy: When Dan Gold ran scale in the mid nineties he ran the second day of heat racing on 10% nitro at the Palmbeach race. The first day he was running 40-50%. There was only 3-5 mph reduction in speed. His boat was district 3 champ when he ran if you recall. You got to remember that Dans budwiser was 18 lbs running a small 50 & 69 wheel. He also ran high head clearance 16-18 thou so he wound not blow the cheap K&B 1L plugs. It seems to me that a obese 18 lb boat cut down to 13-14lbs ,a reduction in wetted surface area, some head and port work done and some prop work would easily make up the 3-5 mph loss and cut the average fuel bill down by 50%. Of course you still have to be a good driver. Nobody plays and experiments with FAI and/or 10% Nitro because of the additional work it takes to optimize the setup. Pouring liquid nitro in the tank is a lot easier for speed and torque increase and thats why everybody runs higher nitro. Until someday someone will get the combination correct and puff the competition running FAI or 10-15% nitro. When seeing is believing than most racers will start to convert over to low nitro because they know it can be done.

Remember Jack only runs 40% nitro on suction and nobody beats him. If the tether guys in Europe can run 120-130mph IN A CIRCLE on FAI why can't we IF WE RE-ENGINEER THE BOATS AND SETUPS AND DO THE RESEARCH? IT TAKES A DEDICATED PEOPLE TO MAKE IT HAPPEN. ---------- DAN

I agree Dan that a well tuned Alky engine could run with the current nitro competition....and that's why I am working on it.

As far as max power, it will come from big nitro. As much as we r/c boaters think we know about making power with nitro we are still very short of the full potential.

 

[NOVALTD]

Andy : If you were to compare two identical rigs one alky and the other nitro powered and they were both optimized for performance the nitro will be faster due to nitro putting out more btus of energy. But since the boat designs,engine mods ,props,setups and driving styles are all different and boats are not optimized for performance,a modeler that has perfected the skills and can drive will out perform the nitro guys as nitro becomes more cost prohibited . Remember it takes more energy to run 130mph in a circle then 130mph in a saw setup. It will take a lot more skill to run a alky at 75 mph then nitro at 75 mph due to the total package combination working together. Last the operational cost will be reduced substantially due to alky being 50-75% cheaper then nitro and your engine parts will not wear out like nitro so parts will last longer and have less rebuilds. Also the needle is easier to get on alky then nitro. If you are the guy that takes the lead in R&D shows the rc world that low nitro and or no nitro can run and beat high nitro then nitro racing will change. Gas racing started out slow and now its running 70-80 mph and gas puts out less energy per unit then alky. General rule when i ran karts was a 10-15% gain in hp running methanol over gasoline. Also the hp/weight ratio is less for gas then methanol . You should have confidence that it can be done. Its just sweating out the details.

---------DAN-----------

 

[dwilfong]

Andy you think that more needs to be done to address fluid dynamics as to the flow threw the eng and less on aero dynamics?

A high liquid suspension will flow different than a more air content mix.

Most all the eng are designed for aero dynamics in mind for a low or no nitro set up.

 

[Andy Brown]

David, As you probably know, 4 stroke head builders have been using "wet" flow benches for some time now.

Even the type of liquid makes a difference. Nitro is heavier and more viscous than methanol or gas.

 

[michael faszcza]

Being that on both fuels a boost provider is not being used the potential of the fuels are not even close to being tapped . Gas burns at a 14 to 1 ratio .alcohol is 6 to 1 nitro 1.5 to 1 . In my opinion a unmodded motor would show the better results .from past experience alcohol is head temp sensitive 220 head temp at idle was good. I also think the less timing will help .

At 50 bucks for 5 gallons and whatever caster oil costs .im gonna be trying this I'll take some power loss for better runtime to dollar ratio

 

[moparbarn]

I'll be watching this at the pond, mike. With your background in pro race engine building & tuning, i'm looking foward to learning from you (-; Talk to carl, his twin fe mono was an alky boat previously.

 

[michael faszcza]

The biggest part is getting the needle right .i believe after you get the needle close and the motor starts making heat it'll waken up alcohol burns really cold.

Should be fun to test and document see you in a couple of weeks robin