question about hydro's front spoiler/carnards/airfoiler.

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misshydro

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 26, 2006
Messages
1,962
Question ,how much do the front airspoiler on a hydro opends? I'm working on a hydro and making the spoiler/carnard opends with the carb. If any of you guys have your working? how are you guys have your operated by third channel?
 
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It's way easier to set the rear wing at zero and then adjust the boat ride with the strut setting and ballast. Roger Newton had one of his Bud boats set up with a gyro that if the boat reached a certain attitude it would, in theory, raise the front canards and force the nose of the boat back down.

All that stuff got mangled the first time he went over a buoy and ripped the front canard wing off and then barrel rolled upside down into the water and took off the cowling, rear wing and uprights.

The other guy is right, it's not worth the trouble.
 
It's way easier to set the rear wing at zero and then adjust the boat ride with the strut setting and ballast. Roger Newton had one of his Bud boats set up with a gyro that if the boat reached a certain attitude it would, in theory, raise the front canards and force the nose of the boat back down.
All that stuff got mangled the first time he went over a buoy and ripped the front canard wing off and then barrel rolled upside down into the water and took off the cowling, rear wing and uprights.

The other guy is right, it's not worth the trouble.
It wouldve done the samething with a stationary carnard,rip it off and took out the rear wing.
 
Miss Hydro, you need to listen to these guys. I can personally verify Mike knowing what he's talking about and should be listened to. Knowing your past history, I'll bet you will try to make it work in one of your Pro Boats just to prove everyone wrong. Wont' happen this time, especially if you continue to run your boats onto the beach to recover them
 
Miss Hydro, you need to listen to these guys. I can personally verify Mike knowing what he's talking about and should be listened to. Knowing your past history, I'll bet you will try to make it work in one of your Pro Boats just to prove everyone wrong. Wont' happen this time, especially if you continue to run your boats onto the beach to recover them
Run my boat into the beach to recover them?? Try close to the shore line to recove them. Hay HJ?? wheres your boats???
 
What a bunch of sheep.

If movable wings are on EVERY unlimited hydro, and every class under them that allow it, I would be a bit hesitant to say "Its not worth the effort", or "It's already been tried".

How many examples are you refering to? This one example?

How about showing everyone the boat that "FAILED". Maybe the person setting it up didn't take in consideration a number of variables.

If movable wings didn't work with model powerboats, why do some of the rules ban the use of them???

I suggest keep going with the project and cast off any negetive input, and go kick some butt.

Back to the original question, the negetive angle of attack has to be determined by finding out its stall point where the wing does not generate the downforce to win over the drag it is creating. The best examples can be found on Top Fueler's - I would study some pictures of airfoil shapes and angles used on them, and/or keep stepping up to a larger square area of the wing or more of an angle untill your hull settles down the way you think it should.

My guess would be staying less than 10 degrees down. Anything more and I would think it would loose its purpose and only add drag.
 
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What a bunch of sheep.
If movable wings are on EVERY unlimited hydro, and every class under them that allow it, I would be a bit hesitant to say "Its not worth the effort", or "It's already been tried".

How many examples are you refering to? This one example?

How about showing everyone the boat that "FAILED". Maybe the person setting it up didn't take in consideration a number of variables.

If movable wings didn't work with model powerboats, why do some of the rules ban the use of them???

I suggest keep going with the project and cast off any negetive input, and go kick some butt.

Back to the original question, the negetive angle of attack has to be determined by finding out its stall point where the wing does not generate the downforce to win over the drag it is creating. The best examples can be found on Top Fueler's - I would study some pictures of airfoil shapes and angles used on them, and/or keep stepping up to a larger square area of the wing or more of an angle untill your hull settles down the way you think it should.

My guess would be staying less than 10 degrees down. Anything more and I would think it would loose its purpose and only add drag.

Miss Hydro, do not be discouraged into not trying something just because someone else cannot make it work. A lot of times all that is required is more effort.

On my riggers I have found that the maximum angle of the front sponson bracket with a flat bottom style airfoil turned upside down is about 13 degrees. This should be similar to your requirements.

When you get it working, then you can show the guys your rooster tail. A girl with a roostertail? I am not sure that is right. :blink:
 
I had the canard working with the rudder on my Oberto scale. It shoved the nose down in a hard left turn and raised the boat a little in a right turn. Worked great in practice and if I were interested in record trials I might mount it back again. In heat racing when you cross over a roller it would sometimes grab the canard and flip it. I used a flex cable so that if something bad happened I would still have rudder control. That part worked. At 50 to 60 mph water can be very destructive and you wouldn't think water would get that high to do damage but it does. I would also think that in a little rtr boat that the extra weight would off set any gain in performance.
 
There are many ways to accomplish the same thing.

Many moons ago I made an auto trim system for a mono that could also be used in other applications.

I opened a servo, found the value of the trim potentioner, purchased a pot that was the same value, placed it outside of the servo, wired it into the servo in place of the inside trim pot, connected this external pot to a pushrod wire with a ski on the end of it that trailed behind the boat. When the ski moved up (the bow rising) the trim pot would adjust the servo's trim. The servo output arm was connected to the adjustable trim plates on the back of the boat. When this happened the trim plates would lower pushing the nose of the boat down and vice versa.

This made a simple auto trim for that boat that could also be adjusted from the transmitter. I was told more than once that it would not work. It worked.

This setup could also be used for the front wing on a hydro. <_<
 
What a bunch of sheep.
If movable wings are on EVERY unlimited hydro, and every class under them that allow it, I would be a bit hesitant to say "Its not worth the effort", or "It's already been tried".

How many examples are you refering to? This one example?

How about showing everyone the boat that "FAILED". Maybe the person setting it up didn't take in consideration a number of variables.

If movable wings didn't work with model powerboats, why do some of the rules ban the use of them???

I suggest keep going with the project and cast off any negetive input, and go kick some butt.

Back to the original question, the negetive angle of attack has to be determined by finding out its stall point where the wing does not generate the downforce to win over the drag it is creating. The best examples can be found on Top Fueler's - I would study some pictures of airfoil shapes and angles used on them, and/or keep stepping up to a larger square area of the wing or more of an angle untill your hull settles down the way you think it should.

My guess would be staying less than 10 degrees down. Anything more and I would think it would loose its purpose and only add drag.
I think the whole issue here is personal preference. I love to see wild build projects. Even if it doesn't make you go faster, it still sets you part from everyone else. I like to build what I like to build. I don't do it for anyone else but me. I think alot of the issue here is that the aero/hydro dynamics are different for a 30 ft hydro than a 2-3 ft hydro. If you really scale everything down. The engines that we put in these things far out power what is really in a scale hydro. Therefore we are pushing these little boats much harder, faster and farther than the full scale. Therefore, for the full scales to maximize performance they need alternative methods. With a scale boat we've already past that point of on the edge since the engines are so powerful. I've recently thought about using teflon bottom paint to reduce friction. After analyzing my theoretical solution, I decided it wouldn't make much difference. Think about this...... Drag is relatively proportional to surface area, 1 s.i. creates X amount of drag. If you have a 70 ft offshore hull x 10 ft wide x 1/5 (wet area) = 20,160 s.i = 20,160(X amount of drag). Okay now factor in your efficency ratio of the teflon paint, say 50%. 20,160 x 50% = 10,180 s.i. = 10,180 X amount of drag. Now that's a big difference. Just a hypothetical equation. Run that same calculation with a 4 ft boat. Back to the adjustable wing theory. Think about this, what is the difference in mass between a full scale hydro and a scale hydro? Our scale boats have much less mass, meaning they are lighter by volume. A full scale is heavier by volume. Since there's more mass to redirect (lift out of the water) you need additional means, other than just raw engine power and hydrologic lift to manipulate the mass. Another point to study, try to define the CG of a full scale hydro by analyzing the weight distribution. You can see that the CG is designed much farther back than our scale models. I've studied a few GP, UL & LTL hydros becuase I believe they are the closest to our sport hydros in size and design. You'll notice that the engine placement is much farther behind the trailing edge of the sponsons. Most scale sport hydros I have seen have the engine in front of the trailing edge setting the CG just behind the trailng edge. This is becuase (my personal hypothesis) of the greater mass of the full scale hydros. They need more force from the water to lift the transom in order to effectively produce lift with the airfoil. My point being that there are many different variables that affect the results of different techniques used on the full scale hydros vs. scale hydros, thus we use different methods to achieve similar results. Any way just my 2 cent. Any thoughts?

As far as any suggestions. I'd say build it in a manner that you can easily change every possible aspect of the design such as replace the wing with maybe a different size or different airfoil design. Then when setting it I would say start at zero and fine tune until you get optimum performance and then adjust in the turns and see what happens.
 
There are many ways to accomplish the same thing.Many moons ago I made an auto trim system for a mono that could also be used in other applications.

I opened a servo, found the value of the trim potentioner, purchased a pot that was the same value, placed it outside of the servo, wired it into the servo in place of the inside trim pot, connected this external pot to a pushrod wire with a ski on the end of it that trailed behind the boat. When the ski moved up (the bow rising) the trim pot would adjust the servo's trim. The servo output arm was connected to the adjustable trim plates on the back of the boat. When this happened the trim plates would lower pushing the nose of the boat down and vice versa.

This made a simple auto trim for that boat that could also be adjusted from the transmitter. I was told more than once that it would not work. It worked.

This setup could also be used for the front wing on a hydro. <_<
And for trimming outboards on the fly. :p
 
What a bunch of sheep.
If movable wings are on EVERY unlimited hydro, and every class under them that allow it, I would be a bit hesitant to say "Its not worth the effort", or "It's already been tried".

How many examples are you refering to? This one example?

How about showing everyone the boat that "FAILED". Maybe the person setting it up didn't take in consideration a number of variables.

If movable wings didn't work with model powerboats, why do some of the rules ban the use of them???

I suggest keep going with the project and cast off any negetive input, and go kick some butt.

Back to the original question, the negetive angle of attack has to be determined by finding out its stall point where the wing does not generate the downforce to win over the drag it is creating. The best examples can be found on Top Fueler's - I would study some pictures of airfoil shapes and angles used on them, and/or keep stepping up to a larger square area of the wing or more of an angle untill your hull settles down the way you think it should.

My guess would be staying less than 10 degrees down. Anything more and I would think it would loose its purpose and only add drag.
I think the whole issue here is personal preference. I love to see wild build projects. Even if it doesn't make you go faster, it still sets you part from everyone else. I like to build what I like to build. I don't do it for anyone else but me. I think alot of the issue here is that the aero/hydro dynamics are different for a 30 ft hydro than a 2-3 ft hydro. If you really scale everything down. The engines that we put in these things far out power what is really in a scale hydro. Therefore we are pushing these little boats much harder, faster and farther than the full scale. Therefore, for the full scales to maximize performance they need alternative methods. With a scale boat we've already past that point of on the edge since the engines are so powerful. I've recently thought about using teflon bottom paint to reduce friction. After analyzing my theoretical solution, I decided it wouldn't make much difference. Think about this...... Drag is relatively proportional to surface area, 1 s.i. creates X amount of drag. If you have a 70 ft offshore hull x 10 ft wide x 1/5 (wet area) = 20,160 s.i = 20,160(X amount of drag). Okay now factor in your efficency ratio of the teflon paint, say 50%. 20,160 x 50% = 10,180 s.i. = 10,180 X amount of drag. Now that's a big difference. Just a hypothetical equation. Run that same calculation with a 4 ft boat. Back to the adjustable wing theory. Think about this, what is the difference in mass between a full scale hydro and a scale hydro? Our scale boats have much less mass, meaning they are lighter by volume. A full scale is heavier by volume. Since there's more mass to redirect (lift out of the water) you need additional means, other than just raw engine power and hydrologic lift to manipulate the mass. Another point to study, try to define the CG of a full scale hydro by analyzing the weight distribution. You can see that the CG is designed much farther back than our scale models. I've studied a few GP, UL & LTL hydros becuase I believe they are the closest to our sport hydros in size and design. You'll notice that the engine placement is much farther behind the trailing edge of the sponsons. Most scale sport hydros I have seen have the engine in front of the trailing edge setting the CG just behind the trailng edge. This is becuase (my personal hypothesis) of the greater mass of the full scale hydros. They need more force from the water to lift the transom in order to effectively produce lift with the airfoil. My point being that there are many different variables that affect the results of different techniques used on the full scale hydros vs. scale hydros, thus we use different methods to achieve similar results. Any way just my 2 cent. Any thoughts?

As far as any suggestions. I'd say build it in a manner that you can easily change every possible aspect of the design such as replace the wing with maybe a different size or different airfoil design. Then when setting it I would say start at zero and fine tune until you get optimum performance and then adjust in the turns and see what happens.
You know I ain't too smart to figure out dem dere equasions. I just look at those crain guys pick up the boats by the sling and what I see is the cg is right on the turn fin.........just like my scale.........may be I'm wrong.
 
been tried not worth the effort
I have it working,but need to know how much should it open too? I even have the rear wing working too.
I would start out with the smallest deflection you can possibly start with....say no more than a few degree's,it may not have effect at lower speeds,but at the 45-50mph mark,i'm sure it will start to exhibit it's usefulness.....if your gonna attach it to the throttle rod,consider using a sliding set-up,much like those used on the brake systems on nitro cars/trucks,this way you can easily "dial in" the the amount of deflection needed... B)
 
I'd did my boat before I'd post this question,wanted some imput. I know some think I'm stupied to try this on a small boat,But heck if it works,I'll be one happy camper.Plus its a good exsparement for me,I'm planning to do a 1/8 scale this fall/winter. My other Oberto hydro with the CMB.21RS redhead. When I drive it to 3/4 throtle she realy jumps on the water like a jack rabbit and dances to side to side.At full throtle she blows over ASAP. If these ideas work to help keep the boat planted better on the water then that great!! You know before they build a real boat they had to build a scale version to do test on first.So why couldnt it work in reverse??I'd made a turn fin that is like the real boys uses and set it up the way did to and my boat handels alot better now with that turn fin. Here's what I'd done,I have the carnard working/hooked up to the carb. At full throtle the carnard open up and at idel it down to help get it up on plane. Rear wing is worked by third channel. I still like your idea you guys posted too!!!! Alot of great info and read!!! WES that different what you did on your boat.Please keep me posted how she does. I'll try to post pics soon.I have it working but my third channel reciver took a dump on me,so I have to buy other one. But please keep the info comming please.
 
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You know I ain't too smart to figure out dem dere equasions. I just look at those crain guys pick up the boats by the sling and what I see is the cg is right on the turn fin.........just like my scale.........may be I'm wrong.

This is an LTL Hydro........

2583053209_86ed968659.jpg


This boat is being picked up dead on the CG. Theres no sling to manipulate the CG.
 
Active mechanically adjustable Canards can be done, my Offshore Cat Active tunnel tab system has a very durable design. The trick is to run them directly off the rudder servo with mixing linkage. My tunnel tabs are preset for 5-7deg downward in straightaways and go down a few deg further in a right turn. The idea is to be able to tune the tabs so i one can go full thorottle on an oval thru turns & straights without blowing off. Linked mechanically to the rudder servo arm the clevis's can be adjusted for more or less downforce. Since this boat is an oval racer anticipated increased turbulance in the Turns (from other boats, chop etc) in theory will require more input on the tabs to keep the nose down flying parallel to water at full thorottle. The mechanism can be adjusted for calm(less input/throw) or rough water(more input/throw) by adjusting the main servo link.

I'm thinking of using the same system on my next 8th scale, the rudder linkage would preset the canard wings for upword angle position for straightaways(more downforce) or when the rudder is in neutral postion. In the turns the canards would go back to neutral. Not hard to do. This way there no expensive gyros or 3rd channel to fiddle with. Preset the linkage for race conditions and go.

Pics are of my 10S(42 volt) FE Royal Purple `Open Cat'.

Royal_Cat_6.jpg

Royal_Cat_4.jpg

Royal_Cat_5.jpg
 
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