Futaba LiFe pack?

[Daniel's Racing]

Update. I got one of the Protek 2100 mAh packs to try and really like them, shows 2300+ on my Triton when cycled. What's nice is it can sit for weeks and lose very little if any charge.

I'm putting them in all my boats.

https://www.amainhobbies.com/protek...pack-6.6v-2100mah-ptk-5188/p-qqqqt2wqpczxactz

Life batteries can provide up to 2500 charge/discharge cycles almost 10 times the charge/discharge cycles of Lipo if treated right.

You are cycling a brand new life pack down to 10% or less ?

Discharging all the capacity out of a new one is bad start to that packs life. Never do that.

You never want to discharge a new LiFe pack below 50% for at least 20 cycles. There is a break-in period with LiFe packs.




Never fully charge them and store for weeks either. You only charge them just before you are going to use them. If you don't use them you must pull 25% capacity back out before any storage of any length of time.

Many don't do this but still manage to get pretty good life despite breaking the rules. Follow the rules and the Life packs are incredible.

 

[Terry Keeley]

The Triton's standard discharge for a 6.6v Life pack is down to 5v, I do that at 1A.

Like others said, I made six runs with two data loggers and a digital rudder servo and used 230mAh, my old 1600 NiMH pack would be just about done.

 

[Daniel's Racing]

The Triton's standard discharge for a 6.6v Life pack is down to 5v, I do that at 1A.

Like others said, I made six runs with two data loggers and a digital rudder servo and used 230mAh, my old 1600 NiMH pack would be just about done.

Terry,
You are missing it completely. What matters what load your draining it with ? Your dumping a new pack completely. Your smarter than this I know.

Not talking about a safe discharge voltage. Talking about capacity.

Do you think it isn't pulling more than 50% capacity when you are taking 2300 mah out of a 2100 mah pack ?

You are depleting the capacity entirely. A brand new pack at that. Not good is all I am saying. I wouldn't make a habit of doing that to your brand new packs.

It is horrible for the packs. Only trying to help you.

Not my first time using these things.

I have almost 15 years experience with using, building and selling LiFe packs. I have sold literally thousands and thousands of LiFe packs.

You have a little to learn. One will be that voltage on these is so loosely related to capacity using voltage reading for state of charge indication is useless and surest way to ruin your packs.

The only way to know how much is left is by knowing what you had to start with and what you have removed. Best to always go at full capacity then pay close attention to run times in particular setup and then watch what the charger is putting back into the packs for certain verification of what you are actually burning.

These are not LiPo's an do not act like Lipo's.

LiFe packs only loose tenths of a volt from 90% capacity to 10% capacity so you can not possibly use it to judge capacity left in the pack. They don't charge and hold voltage way above nominal. A 2S Life will settle down to only a couple tenths of a volt over nominal after coming off the charger at full capacity.

Happy you finally made the change. So now you see what we have been saying all along.

Get a LiFe. You won't believe the difference.

Not the same ratings at all.

230mah out of LiFe compared to entire 1600 mah of NiMh pack is about right.

Put one in your transmitter and it will go every week end for 3 months or more before it needs a charge.

 

[Terry Keeley]

Terry,
You are missing it completely. What matters what load your draining it with ? Your dumping a new pack completely. Your smarter than this I know.

Not talking about a safe discharge voltage. Talking about capacity.

Do you think it isn't pulling more than 50% capacity when you are taking 2300 mah out of a 2100 mah pack ?

You are depleting the capacity entirely. A brand new pack at that. Not good is all I am saying. I wouldn't make a habit of doing that to your brand new packs.

It is horrible for the packs. Only trying to help you.

Not my first time using these things.

I have almost 15 years experience with using, building and selling LiFe packs. I have sold literally thousands and thousands of LiFe packs.

You have a little to learn. One will be that voltage on these is so loosely related to capacity using voltage reading for state of charge indication is useless and surest way to ruin your packs.

The only way to know how much is left is by knowing what you had to start with and what you have removed. Best to always go at full capacity then pay close attention to run times in particular setup and then watch what the charger is putting back into the packs for certain verification of what you are actually burning.

These are not LiPo's an do not act like Lipo's.

LiFe packs only loose tenths of a volt from 90% capacity to 10% capacity so you can not possibly use it to judge capacity left in the pack. They don't charge and hold voltage way above nominal. A 2S Life will settle down to only a couple tenths of a volt over nominal after coming off the charger at full capacity.

Happy you finally made the change. So now you see what we have been saying all along.

Get a LiFe. You won't believe the difference.

Not the same ratings at all.

230mah out of LiFe compared to entire 1600 mah of NiMh pack is about right.

Put one in your transmitter and it will go every week end for 3 months or more before it needs a charge.

I guess I've been told, lol.

Well at least I didn't let the magic smoke out. Yet...

 

[Daniel's Racing]

Cheers my

I guess I've been told, lol.

Well at least I didn't let the magic smoke out. Yet...

Cheers my friend. I want your LiFe battery experience to be the best it can be.

If all your packs are puffed in 6 months you would not be happy.

Just a few rules for them that will make a difference with the LIfe packs.

To be clear though. Just using a small amount only from the pack and charging it back to full will not assist in proper break-in and longest possible life.

20 discharges down to 50-60% capacity working the upper half of it's capacity is best way to achieve the best life from the LiFe's.

You are not the first to start fully cycling brand new packs. It doesn't usually just ruin it right away or anything but it should be bad for them so try to avoid any deep discharge below 50% which in normal use most people never do or shouldn't be . A receiver pack should be sized so you have a 50% safety net. So in normal use your not ever using more than 50% very often.

Most people do not do the proper break in because it takes time and without even having a setting for this on the chargers it is easy to let one go to far.

One trick I found for cycling is do a discharge cycle but lie to the charger and tell it there is one more cell that there reallly is.

In a nutshell,
Not doing the full 20 cycles is not a huge deal as a good many don't but deep discharge to new packs definitely avoid if you can.

 

[Terry Keeley]

Well I sure let the magic smoke outta this NiMh tx pack, think it was the new charger jack I wired up. Lucky I didn't burn the house down.

I'm putting these Protek 3S life packs in all my transmitters and will take them out to charge under supervision from now on!

https://www.amainhobbies.com/protek...tery-9.9v-2100mah-ptk-5187/p-qqqqt2eqnm2xactz

 

[Wasted wages]

Yikes!!
That's not good.... lucky it was only NiMh...if it was a Lipo, things could have gotten outta hand quickly!!!

 

[XtremeRcBoats]

Best to charge and store them in a metal box.

My setup for charging:

Storage box:

 

[Daniel's Racing]

I'm putting these Protek 3S life packs in all my transmitters and will take them out to charge under supervision from now on!

https://www.amainhobbies.com/protek...tery-9.9v-2100mah-ptk-5187/p-qqqqt2eqnm2xactz

Terry,
What transmitter are you using ? If it is 3PM 3PM-X 3PK or 3PKS or other 12 volt based you do not want LiFe 3S in them. The appropriate pack is LiPo only. Yea they make and sell them. Almost all quit making them. They are far from optimum in lithium chemistry. LiFe 3S is too low and LiFe 4S is too high.

I know I was just praising the LiFe and how little voltage they loose but you don't wat LiFe 3S to power 12 volt transmitters. It will work but nothing like a LiPo that is available in the proper voltage would. LiPo about 10 times better. For real. 10 times at least.

LiFe is not so good for them. Fully charged at 9.9 volt you are only 1.4 volt from shutdown. That is too close. Those transmitters need LiPo which is 12.6 fully charged and even at full depletion you are above the cutoff on the radio.

Lots of experience with LiFe in those transmitters. Everyone that was running LiFe (almost 10 years ago now) quickly realized it was far from optimum and LiPo was 10 times better in them.

LiFe 2S 6.6 volt is awesome in 6 volt based transmitters that they almost all are now but 3S in the old 12 volt based not very good at all.

Almost every manufacture realized this and do not even offer the 3S LiFe to fit them anymore.

You are trying to relearn what we have already learned many years ago as our lake went 100% lithium based better than 10 years ago so we have learned a bit on the way about these things.

One was you do not use LiFe 3S 9.9 volt in transmitters that were originally for 8 X AA battery 12 volt design. I know you see them come with 9,6 volt NiCad or NiMh so certainly a 9.9 LiFe is perfect. It does work but far from perfect. Remember how crappy those NiCad/NiMh packs were in the transmitters where you have to charge every outing. You were too close to cut off voltage of the transmitter to start with. It is same with the LiFe 3S. Do your self a huge favor and use a LiPo 3S in those transmitters.

Even Hobbico(Life Source) realized this and discontinued the 9,9 volt LiFe pack for the 12 volt transmitters. Protec last ones offering it I think. About a dozen of us did this same thing. Tried LiFe in the transmitter then realized how awesome a LiPo was in them and that was that. Going every week for literally months with the LiPo. I have a few in stock if you haven't made the mistake yet. A lot less than those 9.9 volt LiFe packs too. My LiPo for the transmitter are highest capacity you can fit in at 2750. 3 months between charges is average for a full day each week end.

I have gone out with the LiPo powering the transmitter and just run all day and the volt meter is showing it gained a 10th of a volt. All day no loss rather up a 10th. I am guessing it was colder morning and as battery warmed it gained a small amount on top of the little bit used it came out ahead. Just crazy though going months when it was weekly night before or day of charge session before with NiCad/NiMh packs we used to use.

 

[Terry Keeley]

I'm still using old 3EGX transmitters from the 80's (on Mode I, ya I'm weird) converted to 2.4, originally they came with 9.6v Nicad packs so why wouldn't a 9.9v LiFe pack work again?

 

[Daniel's Racing]

Terry,
I should have known it would be a old school rig. Right hand throttle. Really weird. Lol.

This is the one case it may be fine with LiFe 3S.

I have been running Futaba since early 70's and had quite a few stick radio's but they always took the 8 AA holders but looking at that manual for the radio kinda similar to yours does show a 7 cell holder. So odd as I have never seen the 7 AA holder but here it says is what it takes.

It appears you may be right about that radio's power requirements.

That is nice really as it is the preferred pack when the voltage is correct.

 

[ALLAN YUEN]

I'm still using old 3EGX transmitters from the 80's (on Mode I, ya I'm weird) converted to 2.4, originally they came with 9.6v Nicad packs so why wouldn't a 9.9v LiFe pack work again?

I used my Airtronics super EXZES with 9.9 LiFe squares battery. No problem

 

[Mike Hughes]

A lot of the orginial futaba radios ran the 7 cell alk. The holders could take 8 if you removed the dead cell section. I used to run my alk 4 cell in the boat. When they were used a bit(down to 1.4v), I moved them to my transmitter. I removed the dead section and ran 8 cells. I was able to run alk down to 1.2v this way with no loss on radio. Then they got used in the clocks of the house. LOL

 

[Daniel's Racing]

I used my Airtronics super EXZES with 9.9 LiFe squares battery. No problem

The battery is puffed. They are no good at that point. Problem.

>>>>

Referring to actual 2.4 Futaba radio's that took the 9.6 volt NiCd flat packs or a 8 cell flat all side by side battery holder. Meaning 3PM 3PM-X 3PK 3PKS type radio's that have been the most popular radio made for the last 10-15 years.

LiFe isn't a problem for the transmitter. It works. It is just no comparison to what the LiPo provides for these transmitters.

For certain if your radio was a 12 volt based the better choice would be LiPo for you NOT LiFe. All radio set up for 8AA's originally are 12 volt radio's.

No one would get what I was explaining unless they get what I was explaining.

I could have showed plenty of pictures of LiFe in Futaba transmitters 8-10 years ago when there were 4-5 manufacturers of the LiFe 3S packs that fit in the Futaba transmitters. Everyone converted to LiPo once they saw the differences with their own eyes and/or talked to the people using them. Didn't take long to realize the LiFe was short changing them because of the low voltage compared to the LiPo. Starting at 12.6 instead of 9.9 did have advantages.

See if I can explain better.

ALL 2.4 radio's that originally took 8 AA batteries are 12 volt based.

12 volt with a 8.5 volt cutoff. 9 volt is the bottom of the safe range. Your LiFe only has .9 volt to use safely. A LiPo 3S starts at 12.6 volt so you have 2.6 volts over to use safely.

The safe usable range of a LiFe is 2.5 volts per cell so for a LiFe 3S that is 7.5 volts as safe discharge voltage. With that being 2 volt below the safe voltage for the radio is obviously not the best choice when you have a LiPo you can use that is perfect voltage range.

Take a 12 volt LiPo with a safe usable range of 3 volts per cell so for LiPo 3S it is 9 volts that is only just reached the safe range for the radio even at full depletion.

The LiFe has no safety net. The LiPo has a huge safety net.

Would you rather start with .9 volts ahead or 2.6 volts ahead. No one that has been there done that would choose a LiFe for the transmitter for the simple fact a LiFe goes a few weeks and a LiPo goes a few months. The safety net is huge with LiPo.

A lot of the orginial futaba radios ran the 7 cell alk. The holders could take 8 if you removed the dead cell section. I used to run my alk 4 cell in the boat. When they were used a bit(down to 1.4v), I moved them to my transmitter. I removed the dead section and ran 8 cells. I was able to run alk down to 1.2v this way with no loss on radio. Then they got used in the clocks of the house. LOL

That is awesome. I love it. Good to the last milliamp.

I was out of hobby for 10-15 years from maybe 1982 to 1997 must have been when those 7 cell radio's were around or I have just forgotten.

I do remember those style NiCd packs though. Maybe I was buying the transmitter set with the rechargeable never realizing it was a 7 count dry cell holder they used. All normal holders that shape are of course 8 cell like that one really is just with a jumper plug instead of one of the cells in there.

I am not even sure a LiPo is made in that exact configuration as all the 8cells are laid out flat in the 2.4 radios and my LiPo would never fit in there anyhow it is a flat pack not the long cube type.

Loved the old stick radio's. I still think it is better driving with a stick. A stick gimbal on a pistol grip radio would be sweet I think.


The stick throttle was slam it to the top and drive that stick. Perfect for that all out drove it like you stole it good ole early nitro days.

 

[Grimracer]

Paul, I am here to tell you that those metal boxes are not going to help when a battery goes up.. the battery will "REMOVE" the cover when it goes.. or.. worse yet.. the cover will stay on and the flames will blow our the gap like a torch.

The best you can do is direct the flame.

Open top container.. in the center of a large room.

Grim

 

[Daniel's Racing]

Some more info for anyone using LiFe packs.

If you buy a capacity checker be aware 99% are running same program and it is totally mucked up.

They will never show the correct capacity for LiFe packs.

Whoever programmed them thought a LiFe was like a LiPo where at 100% full capacity they are 15% above nominal and drop from there.
A LiFe pack is not like that. Fully charged they are right at nominal.

6.66 to 6.68 is full 100% capacity for a 2S pack after it has settled down from the 7.20 volt the charger charges them at.

This is a fully charged pack as evidenced by 6.68 volt reading on the same screen. Lol. OMG the hours I have spent because of these stupid testers. Try convincing someone that tester is crazy. They think the brand new packs are defective because of this regularly.

They do not show correct capacity for a fully charged 100% capacity pack.

 

[Terry Keeley]

Looks like they have a very flat discharge curve, I'll be charging mine if I ever see about 3.15v / cell.

 

[Daniel's Racing]

Yes sir the discharge rate is very flat. That is why you can not use voltage to determine capacity at all. It is so loosely related it could be at 15% or 85% capacity no way to tell from voltage reading. You learn from your charger how long you can run a given pack in that particular equipment. Start out topping it up prematurely then learn what it is using. By the time your seeing a drop it is going under 10% capacity. Dumping them to 10% every time especially early on is not good. Don't use voltage readings for much of nothing. Best and safest way to use these packs.

People with volt meters plugged in their radio boxes and running LiFe are asking for trouble. You never want to go below 50% really. That is your safety net and because these things provide so much power that is not hard to do. You will never see when it is down to 10% and dumps because it could occur in a single run if the battery was near depletion. Throw it in when reading what you figure is 75% because it the same thing it reads at 15% thinking your all good but in reality it was knocking on the door to 10% where the voltage falls out.

Even your transmitter it would be better to get the hang of what it is drawing from the pack over time and several charges and just charge it some where around 40-50% capacity. You are going to say that is too soon or too often and I wanna use it all but wait until you see just how long these LiFe's power your transmitter coming from NiMh you are in for a nice surprise.

When you find charger is replacing about half the capacity when you charge that is optimum time to charge especially first 20 cycles and should be how you always use them. Battery should be sized to where you are only using top 50% and you will be way ahead of the game.

The only way to know what you are or have taken out of a LiFe pack is to measure it with watt meter as it is being used or simply just always go out fully charged and then note about how long you ran. Then when you charge you will see what the charger replaced to get back to full. Soon you know about when it is time to charge.

It is just like a cars fuel gauge. You would never use it to determine gallons used to figure your gas mileage. Of course not you would start at full run the thing and fill it up again and use how many gallons the pump says you put back in the tank. Well duh. Same thing here even more so but I hope that explains voltage as it relates to capacity with LiFe packs.

 

[Grimracer]

An option..

I like mine
https://futabausa.com/product/br-3000/
in my 10cent charge box I have one of these

https://www.amazon.com/Dynamite-Pro...t=&hvlocphy=9019301&hvtargid=pla-700855491246
So.. its a easy combo...

Grim

 

[Daniel's Racing]

The Futaba does look like better unit.

Do they show full 100% capacity when LiFe 2S pack is at 6.66-6.68 volts ? Does it measure IR too ?

Doubt it uses that messed up Chinese program most all the other use.

I have bought and/or tested quite a few hoping to find ones that read full capacity with LiFe packs maxxed at 6.66-6.68volt or full capacity. They have all been that same exact program. Same type of screens and navigation and lucky if you ever see it much over 75% once overcharge from charge cycle settles down as that isn't real voltage that is just residual from when it was on charger getting 7.20 volt during charging.

Even the Futaba is still only using the voltage reading to judge capacity so it still is not able to tell the capacity left in the pack with any accuracy to make it useful in the range we want to know most. Using the voltage to judge remaining capacity percentage for most of the useful range won't be hugely accurate.

Using voltage on LiFe discharge curve can find upper 90% to 100% and low end 10% to 0% for you but that info just isn't very useful most of the time. Great to find if you remembered to charge one or if pack is up near the top like you thought.

Usually top it up great it is full but you already know that cause it just came off the charger so only good the top end measurement is good for is to tell if you in fact charged the pack later on. The voltage curve is just too flat. The bottom half by the time you know it dropped some it could already be very near 10% and dumping fast you would know better not run that one it needs charging. But you really should not be discharging transmitter and receiver packs that low if you want them to last and to avoid mishaps and batteries going dead while being used on the water.

Charger with no parameter readouts is really only good for an emergency. Good if you somehow end up depleting something while at the lake if you have inverter/generator to power it.