Engine bearing question

[jasoncsc]

Hi,

I notice most bearings that are being used in our marine engines have plastic retainers. Could someone tell me the difference between a bearing with plastic retainer and one with metal retainer?

Take the 607 bearings that is being used by most 21 engine makes. In our hardware shops I could find high quality SKF bearings with metal retainers, and pricewise the bearing with metal retainer is only 1/20th the cost of a CMB brand bearing with plastic retainer. I asked the guy at the hardware shop and he said bearings with plastic retainers are not available and have to be ordered. I checked in the bearings manufacturer website and it said the metal retainer bearing have a rating of 37,000 RPM max. Why would I pay a premium for plastic retainer bearings if I could use metal retainer bearings? <_<

Thanks for any info.

Regards,

Jason

 

[Don Ferrette]

"I checked in the bearings manufacturer website and it said the metal retainer bearing have a rating of 37,000 RPM max. Why would I pay a premium for plastic retainer bearings if I could use metal retainer bearings?"

Because the little metal tangs on those metal retainers break off & do very nasty things to the inside of your motor. Get your bearings from Ron Byrd @ Racecraft Bearings-

http://www.racecraftbearings.com/

He's got the swiss WIB bearings which are the best. His service is first rate & he's a member here on our forum. Ron will take good care of you. B) B)

 

[nitrotoys]

I have used both type bearings, I havent seen a difference myself.

Thinking here, I want to say the METAL retainer ones have less drag.

Somewhere i am thinking i heard that, I like the metal retainer ones better, they hold up better than the rubber retainers.

On the engine bearings, I always take out on side retainer for oil from engine to get in. metal on outside and take it out on the inside. the bearings will hold tougher without it.

My .02 here.

Tom

 

[Mike T.]

Nitrotoys, I hope you're referring to the shield or seal. They're talking about the retainer, the thing that keeps the balls in place and evenly spaced within the races. You can run a bearing without the seal or shield, but it would come apart if you ran it without the retainer.

 

[RaceCraftBearings]

I have used both type bearings, I havent seen a difference myself.
Thinking here, I want to say the METAL retainer ones have less drag.

Somewhere i am thinking i heard that, I like the metal retainer ones better, they hold up better than the rubber retainers.

On the engine bearings, I always take out on side retainer for oil from engine to get in. metal on outside and take it out on the inside. the bearings will hold tougher without it.

My .02 here.

Tom

Hello NitroToys, you are referring to the seal or shield where they are speaking of the retainer.

The retainer: Holds the balls in place within the race. Metal retainers have been known to have the tangs break off or sometimes the retainer comes apart and ruins a piston and liner while the polymide (plastic) retanier I personally have not seen any thing of this nature and even if it did its plastic therfore it wont damage your piston and liner.

Shields or Seals: Both are there to keep dirt and grime on the outside. Keep in mind that neither the seal or shield is a positive seal, if it were then the front bearing would get no oil due to no air flow and it would die a horable death . Seals offer the car racer a great way to run in dust and dirt and keep most of the grime out of the bearings, after a days running the car racer can take the seal out and clean the bearing then re-install the seal and he is ready to go again. The best seal to use is the NON Contact seal which does not touch the race or balls. The Contact seal does and causes a small amount of drag. Shields can be removed but once they are they are history, you wont be able to re-use it. Shields on High Quality Bearings do not contact the balls or retainer and are held in place by the outer most part of the outer race and therefore do not cause any drag.

I sell Swiss made WIB Polymide retainer bearings rated at 70,000 RPM and Japanese made NACHI steel retainer bearings rated at 40,000 RPM. Both are made with 52100 Chrome Steel Balls and Races. The WIB's are the ones I and most boat racers use. There are a few bearings that are not availible in polymide and steel is your only choice.

With the NACHI steel retainer bearings the balls are covered on both side with a steel retanier and the two are riveted together therefore there are no tangs to break off and hurt your motor.

Just to show I stand behind the products I sell I am right now running some of the Steel retainer bearings in my MAC 67 and 84 and they are holding up very well, I will of course go back to the WIB's because they are my preference.

Hope this helps clear the mud! :unsure:

Ron Byrd

 

[nitrotoys]

OK, Needed to reread it. YES I was talking about the seals.

Sorry for the mix up. Im still learning to read here and have trouble with the bigger words

 

[Ian Inverarity]

I have had a steel retainer break up and ruin a P&L and head in an OPS 21, and have seen the same thing in two OPS 45's. Not good. I only use bearings with polyamide retainers now! B)

Ian.

 

[Don Ferrette]

Yup, the results are definitely ugly!!! :huh:

 

[Chris Wood]

ron

the bearings that come in the nova rossi 21's are the swiss as good as the nova rossi bearing, i hate to pay 45 bucks for one stinking bearing.

also, the bearings that come in the green head cmb. do you know what brand they are

thanks,

chris

 

[RaceCraftBearings]

Hello Chris , I have been out all day today. First prepping the 2004 Winter Nationals site for the race in two weeks then had to make a trip down to Boca Raton and just returned home (1:48 am h34r: ). I will elaborate on your question after some sleep and then more work at the lake on Sunday.

Ron

 

[RaceCraftBearings]

ron
the bearings that come in the nova rossi 21's are the swiss as good as the nova rossi bearing, i hate to pay 45 bucks for one stinking bearing.

also, the bearings that come in the green head cmb. do you know what brand they are

thanks,

chris

Hello Chris as promised here is my reply to your post earlier.

Before I write my book about the NR LS large bearing I better answer your CMB Ghead question so it does not get lost in chapter two LOL.

I am not sure what brand CMB is using but there are many bearing MFG's that build the 2413 bearings and WIB is one of them. I would suggest WIB brand on your first change of bearings.

The Nova Rossi your speaking of is the Long Stroke and that large bearing in my opinion is the worst thing Nova Rossi could have used in a quality motor such as the LS. The reason I say this is that 14 mm id and 25.4 od does not go together well for a solid dependable bearing. At first Nova Rossi was the only place to get these as they were designed by NR and they found a bearing MFG that would build it for them. Now there is a GENERIC bearing that is made by who knows who and it is quite frankly a piece of JUNK. The balls are way to small and will skid all day long until they are mince meat. At least the Nova Rossi bearing has fewer balls (9 If I remember correctly verses 11 in the off brand. With 9 balls the balls themselves can be larger and are less prone to skid. Also the Nova Rossi brand has the retainer offset which helps support the load better and this helps the bearing to withstand the riggors of its job a bit better if properly installed. Mind you that while neither of these bearings are of the quality of any of the WIB's that I sell the Nova Rossi is the better of the two and the only one I would reccomend using if you are dead set on running NR LS motors, I will not run then due to the large bearing, besides all my Macs run better anyway.

I also agree that the price you pay for ONE poorly designed 25.4X14 bearing is an unheard of price. I will say the the 13 mm ID bearings are also more expensive than most bearing sizes they are not nearly that of the cost of the 14 mm X 25.4. 25.4 by the way is equal to 1 inch.

Ron

 

[TimD]

Ron,

is there a smaller OD bearing that could be used with a 25.4mm OD "adaptor" in the L/S motor?

Tim.

 

[RaceCraftBearings]

Hello Tim, there is a smaller od but that just makes the problem worse (CMB 21 Red Head uses a 2514) you would need to go smaller on the ID or larger on the OD to improve this situation. The smaller ID could be accomplised by an expert machinist to duplicate the NR LS crank in every way except use 13 mm instead of 14 mm on the big end of the crank. Then you would have two machine an alluminum spacer ring that would press into the 25.4 bearing seat of the case and take up .4 mm or 1.4 mm to accomadate either a 2513 bearing or a 2413 bearing both of which are very solid bearings and used in several 21 motors.

The other option of going larger on the OD would require center boring the case to accept a larger OD bearing. This would need to be done by a seasoned professional because it must be dead center or the crank would be put into a bind. I would have to check to see if there is a bearing with a 14 MM ID and a larger OD that would not outgrow the boundries of the LS case. Not having an LS case myself I cant sit here and say that there is enough room to go any larger than they are now.

Ron

Again Good Luck for a full and speedy recovery for your grandfather!