bouncing on flat water

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rcpilotbill

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 5, 2007
Messages
185
Question for all you guys.....

My boat is working exceptionally well in race conditions (when there is a bit of chop or ripple on the water) but I am trying to get rid of one more bad characteristic.... On flat water it bounces, the second it hits ANY ripple the boat settles right down and is smooth as can be...

Actually all three of my boats are doing this and they are set from loose and fast to more stuck and safe, so I am having trouble figuring how the setups are causing it....

Any suggestions on how to get rid of the one characteristics without planting it on the water and losing speed?

I know at this point if I had to choose, I will leave it as it is since there is almost NEVER smooth water after the racing starts and the characteristic only shows up on glass water.

thanks for your help

Bill
 
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Question for all you guys.....
My boat is working exceptionally well in race conditions (when there is a bit of chop or ripple on the water) but I am trying to get rid of one more bad characteristic.... On flat water it bounces, the second it hits ANY ripple the boat settles right down and is smooth as can be...

Actually all three of my boats are doing this and they are set from loose and fast to more stuck and safe, so I am having trouble figuring how the setups are causing it....

Any suggestions on how to get rid of the one characteristics without planting it on the water and losing speed?

I know at this point if I had to choose, I will leave it as it is since there is almost NEVER smooth water after the racing starts and the characteristic only shows up on glass water.

thanks for your help

Bill

this thing sound familiar with tunnel <_< ..same thing with my tunnels, but i just found my set-up for glass water running...

how much patience do u have Bill coz u need alot during fine tuning,,i almost run out though :lol: lot of prop, prop angle and height test combination and CG location.

btw, what i did is set a reference point of prop angle and height, initially i set it in neutral angle and height level to the sponson bottom tip then run different props and check each boat behavior with each prop then i pick the prop that runs the smoothes,, next i play around with prop height if boat tends to blow over i lowered it and vice versa, every millimeter of adjustment counts then if the boat still have the tendency to blow over or run wet i started to play the prop angle same every angle adjusted counts.the last resort i'l do is putting weights in changing CG which is i'm not a big fan of weights in the boat.

it's fun and pain doin this :p :angry: needs a handful of prop to get the sweet spot...but man feels good once u got it...goodluck...
 
Thanks,

I have actually begun to do exactly as you have mentioned to see if I can find that place where the boat is happy. I also run a GPS in the boat so that I can find what each setting does to the speed of the boat as well. I have found that what looks or feels slow is sometimes faster because of the way the boat is handling and what seems fast is some times slower for the same reasons....

So I guess I will simply continue to go to the pond and test as I have been and keep tuning and writing notes as to what each adjustment does and how it affects the handling of the boat.

Bill
 
a slow rise and fall is common on all boats in smooth water. full size and rc, regardless of hull style-except maybe riggers and hydros. mostly due the increased drag/surface tension. one way the help it is to induce air under the hull. the cuts/channels or steps you see in some hulls are attempts to do this. like the ts2 or aeromarine cats. if yours is flat, consider sheeting the sponsons/bottom, and added them-running across the hull at an angle-front of angle inner, trailing to the outside. will help break up the flow and add air to 'unstick' the hull. that, and a lot of tuning. if the boat runs well in race conditions, i wouldn't worry about it. like you say, when is a race calm? part of the first lap, maybe? really only a consideration for SAW type running,IMHO. as stated in the previous post, it can be done, but why, not for heat racing. sounds like you have testing and record keeping well in hand, enjoy the experiments, that's half the fun :D . the other half is winning with what you learned B) . good luck.
 
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Bill,

Welcome to tunnels...

Add a small 1/8" or so 12" long strake at the shear edge on the bottom of the sponons.. That will get rid of it... also will not hurt your heat racing setup.

Grim
 
grim, should the strake be triangular, tapered at the bottom, or flat? similar to the ts2-on the inner edge of the sponson? i have 2 pairs of the same boat-top speed"1" (great planes) and dumas hot shot sprint. be interested to try one and compare results. thanx in advance.
 
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I have used everything from a strake that has the bottom parallel to the tunnel roof to a triangle with the point going down.. Either works. As a matter of fact you can by some plasticstrut 1/8" angle and glue it on. Legs to the sponson bottom, Dont even need to sharpen the front.. Works great.

Grim
 
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it's all perfectly clear, now :blink: :lol: . no, really, i do understand, now. thanx, another "excuse" TO GO BURN MORE NITRO :D .
 
Hopping, Bouncing, Propoising,, I have witnessed it from full size to models. I live near "Devils Lake" where

full size boats come to set speed records and when they're bouncing something is obviously not set right

but they usually find it before the event is over.

Our boats are no different with this aspect anyway and a solution can found. Most model tunnels that are

set-up correctly will bounce if they'er engines are not procucing they'er normal full power and speed.

During the test running phase of any boat race boaters are finding the setup for that particular pond and

weather conditions, so don't think it "strange" that you have to do it too.

Honestly, if your engine is developing it's max HP, with the right setup and prop on there, flat water isn't

going to affect things that much. Is a slight "breeze ripple" gunna make'm faster? You bet! but it's not

essential with the current top tunnels.

Many of you (without help) will have to take on the learning curve of this area of the hobby, you can't

escape it , you have to go thru it like all of us did.

Some of the things I have seen is that many run too much prop on their motors, never letting the engine

develope enough power to do anything fast. A 40mm prop is too **** big for allot of these O/B engines,

use a 637 , 438 or 40X53 to let them spin up to work thru the motor adjustments.

Blueprinting of the hull running surfaces is an area that most leave undone and a bunch of speed

and handling can be lost right there. Get next to someone that knows how to do this and let him show you

so you don't mess your only boat up like I did once.

Balancing lead weights in or on the boat, your gonna have to use lead, just get over it right now and

save yourself the frustration. Very few have no balancing weight in or on they're tunnels, you find one,

shoot'em and do us all a favor.

In 21 O/B engines heat is a huge factor, getting them hot enough will help the engine develope its full

power allowing you to use more fuel and lube in the process. Allot has be said about this right in this topic,

don't ignore it, you won't believe the speed and rpm that can be gained by just getting them hot enough.

I'm done

JW
 
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AAAMEN JW tell it like it is the truth an nothing but the truth

an Bill at Milan after your first lap was the water ripple free any way?

so there is not to much flat water to be had any way :D

Marty

hay JW keep them TT to your self :lol: ;)
 
Thanks JW that was some great information.... I never figured that I would get out of having to learn it.... but it never hurts to try to get through it faster with the knowledge that others have already learned.....

Marty,

I agree, once the boats are on the pond, there is almost never ripple free water which is why I figured that I can live with it this way if I have to, but I would like to learn the why is it doing it and can I get rid of it, side of it.....

Thanks everyone, I appreciate the feedback. Now as Mopar stated, I have an excuse to go to the pond and burn more fuel.... :p

Bill
 
Bill,
Welcome to tunnels...

Add a small 1/8" or so 12" long strake at the shear edge on the bottom of the sponons.. That will get rid of it... also will not hurt your heat racing setup.

Grim
Hey Grim,

I'm kinda new here and, as Jerry said, one of those guys that has alot to learn, but do you have a picture of the plastistrut strake placement your talking about? I've got a TSII that has a very similar problem.

Jeff
 
:eek: .

Hopping, Bouncing, Propoising,, I have witnessed it from full size to models. I live near "Devils Lake" where full size boats come to set speed records and when they're bouncing something is obviously not set right

but they usually find it before the event is over.

Our boats are no different with this aspect anyway and a solution can found. Most model tunnels that are

set-up correctly will bounce if they'er engines are not procucing they'er normal full power and speed.

During the test running phase of any boat race boaters are finding the setup for that particular pond and

weather conditions, so don't think it "strange" that you have to do it too.

Honestly, if your engine is developing it's max HP, with the right setup and prop on there, flat water isn't

going to affect things that much. Is a slight "breeze ripple" gunna make'm faster? You bet! but it's not

essential with the current top tunnels.

Many of you (without help) will have to take on the learning curve of this area of the hobby, you can't

escape it , you have to go thru it like all of us did.

Some of the things I have seen is that many run too much prop on their motors, never letting the engine

develope enough power to do anything fast. A 40mm prop is too **** big for allot of these O/B engines,

use a 637 , 438 or 40X53 to let them spin up to work thru the motor adjustments.

Blueprinting of the hull running surfaces is an area that most leave undone and a bunch of speed

and handling can be lost right there. Get next to someone that knows how to do this and let him show you

so you don't mess your only boat up like I did once.

Balancing lead weights in or on the boat, your gonna have to use lead, just get over it right now and

save yourself the frustration. Very few have no balancing weight in or on they're tunnels, you find one,

shoot'em and do us all a favor.

In 21 O/B engines heat is a huge factor, getting them hot enough will help the engine develope its full

power allowing you to use more fuel and lube in the process. Allot has be said about this right in this topic,

don't ignore it, you won't believe the speed and rpm that can be gained by just getting them hot enough.

I'm done

JW
all very true. listen to him! i'm a noobie to .21 tunnels, but have been around full size hi performance boats of all types all my life. i can remember in the late 50's and early 60's, tunnel hulls/ cats were a new concept in racing. everything i have learned in close to 50 years of full size boats applys to everything we do. motor heat, rpm and prop can affect hopping almost more than balance. too big a prop will produce more lift, but load the motor. as the bow rises, the prop angle and depth change. deeper prop, less rpm to sustain the power needed to carry the nose. nose drops, prop frees up, rpm and power rise, repeat as needed. i only run k&b's (supposedly more torque than os?), and i've run into this. sometimes raising the motor can help, but usually a smaller prop is the cure. if i don't remove the water from my motors, they are just a few degrees above the pond temp! pond 74 last weekend, 88 ambient air, motor 83, after 5 minutes of all out running. with no water, i can only see about 143, at the base of the glow plug, with a ir thermemeter. on byron's 40%, immediately after coming off the water, 5 or 10 seconds. but i can tell a differance, have to run richer needle. running a tongue cut x440, thinned, reduced to 38.5 mm dia., tips cupped/repitched. on a great planes top speed, 3/32" above sopnson, 1.5 degree + trim. have about 3 1/2 oz. in the nose, another 2 0z. lead in front of the radio box. balances at 7", directions call for 7 1/4".red ucing prop diameter and cupping the tips to help direct the prop thrust helped hopping/rise and fall more than anything. about lead- i have 7 1/4 oz. on the front/outside of the radio compartment in my dumas hot shot sprint, to hit 8 1/2" :p ! it can be tuned out in some hulls, others will require help, like strakes that grim suggested. seen similar solutions on magnum missles in the later 60's ( an early production tunnel by don aranow/later of cigarette boat fame). listen to these guys, it's good info, but no substitue for testing and tuning. EVERY boat is different, you have to learn what it wants, and not be afraid to try it. but, when you hit the set up, the nose lifts high enough to worry you, the whole boat rises another 1/2",. the motor is turning higher than ever. at the end of the straight, you turn the wheel, the nose settles, the sponsons bite, and the boat cuts a nice tight arc, with no hopping and very little sliding. straighten out, the nose pops back up, the motor screams, and i've got a huge grin on my face :D . that's what i'm talkin' about!
 
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Bill,
Welcome to tunnels...

Add a small 1/8" or so 12" long strake at the shear edge on the bottom of the sponons.. That will get rid of it... also will not hurt your heat racing setup.

Grim
Hey Grim,

I'm kinda new here and, as Jerry said, one of those guys that has alot to learn, but do you have a picture of the plastistrut strake placement your talking about? I've got a TSII that has a very similar problem.

Jeff

Jeff,

Interestingly enough the TS2 does not have the same problem. The TS bounces regardless of the type of water its on. The problem Bill has is not the same problem you are seeing.

You really need to address your bouncing issue with Jerry D. Jerry has a better insight as to what is happing to your TS2

Thanks

Grim
 
time for an update. took the dumas hot shot to the pond sat am. had 7 1/4 oz. in the front of the radio compartment to balance at 8 1/2" from the transom. directions call for 8 to 9" balance. haven't run this boat in about 3 years. last time out it was set up with a 13 mm k&b, prather mod kit (minus the skeg mods), prather 220 set way high. set up now is stock 12 mm k&b, even with the sponsons, slight neg. trim-1 degree. it porpoised so bad, it would stuff it self after 3 or 4 hops. started removing weight, down to 2 oz. total. running fairly good now, ran out of height adj. prop would give a great hole shot, then bite and load up too much. tried prather 215-s&b, octura x437-3-tongue cut, and x440-tungue cut, trimmed to 38.5 mm, and tips 'rolled'. couldn't go high enough for the 215, also porpoised worse. 437-3 was the most stable, just slower-still too low. x440 was best, but still too low. as i removed weight, i was also able to set my trim at 0, to help lift some. went back to the house to rearrange/reassemble the dubro mount, for more adjustment. just saying all this to point out that the starting point in the instructions is just that, a starting point. you need to work from there. i ran about 1/3 of a gallon out in about 3 hours, and never ran a full tank (6 oz.) straight thru. always came in to adj. after a minute or two. sometimes sooner, the hot shot is a light, sensitive hull. it WILL tell you if it's not happy. in a hurry :lol: . running my old great planes top speed has spoiled me, i had forgotten what it means to 'drive' a boat. a bad handling boat is a handful, but that boat is crazy. but, as i sorted it out, it definately drove better. still requires your attention ALL the time. boat weighed 4 lbs. 9 oz. set up. down to about 4 1/4 lb. now. now that i have the adj. i need, i will start again this week after work. can't complain, spent as much time under water (think submarine) and upside down as i did right side up :rolleyes: -the radio compartment stayed dry!
 
I found this info on a website about boats, in particular tunnel boats.

Thought it might be helpful

FEATURE ARTICLE: The "Hump Zone"

["Why does my boat porpoise?"]

Question from Member: "My ModVP style sport tunnel (with centerpod) has a real "hopping" motion at about 70 mph. It's like a porpoising, but it goes away at about 80mph. What is wrong with my setup?"

Answer: Well, this is a common trait of high-performance hulls, and tunnel boats in particular. I call this transition speed (between 75mph and 80mph on your boat setup the "hump zone". Seat time is the best way to learn how to drive thru....And caution is the word all the way! Learn slowly!

Often the reason a tunnel experiences a "porpoise" at a particular speed is quite simple. The tunnel hull gains it's performance from a unique balance between aerodynamic lift generated by the aerofoil/tunnel configuration, and the hydrodynamic lift generated by the running pads (on the water). The "hump" or "transition zone" occurs at a different velocity with each tunnel boat and setup. The hump zone is unique to tunnel hulls, and represents the speed at which the amount of lift becomes predominantly aerodynamic (air lift from tunnel and aerofoil) compared to hydrodynamic (water lift from sponsons).

At the speed that the transition occurs, the hull will always experience some longitudinal instability - like porpoising (but not always in that form). The hull experiences a dynamic CofG shift through the "hump" zone. The transition velocity can be accurately determined for any given hull design and setup, and can even be altered by hull design, weight distribution, propeller selection and engine/hull setup. Engine height adjustment can help find the best setup to "smooth out" the transition. Sometimes unplanned 'hook' or 'rocker' in the running pad surfaces can exaggerate the performance effects thru the "hump zone". Weight movement will also change the speed at which the "hump zone" occurs.

The best tunnel designs actually minimize the "hump zone" to one that is very mild and through a narrow velocity range. This balance is usually done at the initial design stage. Once boat is designed/built, the best solution is to design the setup so that the hump zone occurs at a velocity that the driver does not need/intend to spend time in...in other words, you are just "passing through". Setup, trim and weight balance can help this allot.

The boat's reaction as it goes thru the hump zone (for a given design/setup) will always be the same, too. So driving/handling experience helps. The "effects" of the hump zone can be "softened" through design and setup changes, but will always be there. First the power to attain top performance of the hull needs to be available, then the boat has to be setup to be able to use the full power through to top performance.

That's why there is no substitute for 'seat-time' in any performance powerboat. There are design and setup optimizations that can be made to make the "hump zone" as smooth as possible - even comfortable - but you will always have to "drive-through" the hump zone, in one way or another. The more 'seat-time' in the boat - the more experience there is in knowing how your setup behaves as it passes through the transition.
 
very good post/info, moron. i really like the statement that a tunnel MUST have enough power. an underpowered tunnel will have handling issues, due to not utilizing the hull's design fully. just out of curiosity, i searched "hump zone" on screamandfly.com, there's a full page of threads dealing with exactly this issue, on tunnels and mod vp's. all full size related, but still applies to our little boats. there is a lot of good info on the full size boat sights, they have been dealing with tunnels handling issues for 40-50 years. check them out, it's worth the time, imho.
 
Let me see if I understand these strakes . Picture below are what I'm representing are strakes . Which placement are we talking about here .

Thanks in advance

Ed.R

strakes.jpg
 
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Granted that I read this thread quickly, one of the topics that was not brought up was the prop. When my linx or my scatch designs get the hops the first thing I check is the prop. I make sure that both blades are the same. When I get it right the hops go away. I then take the prop and put it on a steel plate and cook it in my Bar B Que at over 700 degrees for a hour to harden it. If you run Octura props that have been thinned and re-worked Hardening is neccesary, The blades wiil change at the type of loads we are putting on them. Just my 2 cents. Greg
 
Let me see if I understand these strakes . Picture below are what I'm representing are strakes . Which placement are we talking about here .
Thanks in advance

Ed.R

strakes.jpg
i have seen them on the inner edge of the sponson, next to the tunnel, most times. but, i have seen them on the outer edge, also. i have also seen a piece of angle, mounted on the inner wall of the tunnel, flush with the bottom of the sponson, extending into the tunnel. not as much a strake, as much as an added ride surface/"pad". the inner edge strake is the most common, and the most effective, imo. represented by the blue line in your pic.
 
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