American Professional Racing association

[Mark Poole ModVP]

Lot of valid points here. Now, if the pro racing website has a discussion forum, imagine if some of us went over there and started talking up how great amature racing is.

Adam, think about what you are doing. This is International Waters. You don't see NAMBA racers or APBA racers come in here and try to persuade others that their organizations are what everybody should be doing. I am also one of those that will say mixing a hobby like this with large prize money WILL cause more problems. When the shine of the "new" NASCAR wears off it will be dead.

 

[Jerry Dunlap]

One of the many great things about our nation is we are free to make decisions. Someone decided to create a professional model boat racing association. The long/and or short term result of that decision will be based on the decision of others. A few years back, Coca Cola Bottling Company decided to offer a new product - New Coke. Consumers decided they didn't like New Coke. No more New Coke. Model boaters are consumers. The success of this endeavor will be decided by the model boat consumer. I didn't buy New Coke and won't buy professional model boating. But, others are free to make their own decision.

JD

 

[Bill Britton]

One of the many great things about our nation is we are free to make decisions. Someone decided to create a professional model boat racing association. The long/and or short term result of that decision will be based on the decision of others. A few years back, Coca Cola Bottling Company decided to offer a new product - New Coke. Consumers decided they didn't like New Coke. No more New Coke. Model boaters are consumers. The success of this endeavor will be decided by the model boat consumer. I didn't buy New Coke and won't buy professional model boating. But, others are free to make their own decision.
JD

Exactly.

I don't see myself racing for money, but I am not going to down someone for doing it if they have the chance. Maybe I'm the one missing out... maybe not.

 

[piper_chuck]

Ya know what? I have been watching this thread for awhile and I have come to a conclusion... If ya wanna race for money to recoup some of the costs of this hobby or to try and get rich racing rc boats then by all means do it. if ya don't then don't. It's that simple. Bashing something you haven't even tried is contrary to the fundamental basics of this hobby. IE... how's this prop work with this boat? don't know let's try it out etc... etc... this is like tellin' your kids don't eat your momma's pea's the first time she makes them. gimme a break you guy's you are acting like little kids. If ya don't wanna race for money then don't but don't bash those that do want to just because you don't think it's a good idea.

Bill, some valid points, however...

I'm often curious why people try to stifle polite discussions, which this has pretty much been, and why you would accuse people who are just expressing their opinions on pro racing of "acting like kids"?

This is a discussion board, and this is a discussion. This particular topic is pro racing. I don't think anyone has told anyone else to not do it, although some individuals have said they personally won't do it. Instead, people have been pointing out some pitfalls. If people think someone is doing something that might be bad for the hobby, why can't they speak up? If they think their are negative consequences connected with pro racing, why can't those be mentioned? In the end, the decision to play in this pro series is up to the individual and threads like this will help each of us make a more informed decision.

 

[Scott Norris]

Before I consider participating in such a race I will have to see the Nitro Boat rules posted in a manner that makes sense. As far as the Pit Rules, adjustments from the drivers will have to be made but I can understand where Fred is coming from.

I take it for granted that the .90cc engine size limit should read .90ci but would like to see this changed to 1.01ci to accomodate all the big block CMB .91- 1.01ci engines. If not changed, Why not??

I don't understand the reasoning for the rule stating "Fuels for Nitro, RTR may be of any content % desired. Any fuel used must be commercially available to anyone and be in Manufacturer's container." There are many reasons why we mix our own fuel. Mine is the cost of 60-70% Nitro fuel and the fact that if I mix it myelf, I know what is in it and if the fuel is bad, it's nobodys fault but my own.

The rule stating "Boats may be started in the team pit ara for adjusting and warm up. All talbes in the pit area MUST have prop guards mounted to the table." What's a Prop Guard mounted to a table look like??

"Course to be between 300 and 350 ft by a minimum of 150 ft wide oval" The 300-350' straights are OK but 75' radius turns? Why not go with the course size that is already in use in IMPBA, NAMBA etc?

Tell me about using transponders in boats. Where do they mount? If APRCRA transponder is used, is it issued for that particular boat for the entire race weekend?

Any answers would be appreciated.

 

[Norm Doerr]

Before I consider participating in such a race I will have to see the Nitro Boat rules posted in a manner that makes sense. As far as the Pit Rules, adjustments from the drivers will have to be made but I can understand where Fred is coming from.
I take it for granted that the .90cc engine size limit should read .90ci but would like to see this changed to 1.01ci to accomodate all the big block CMB .91- 1.01ci engines. If not changed, Why not??

I don't understand the reasoning for the rule stating "Fuels for Nitro, RTR may be of any content % desired. Any fuel used must be commercially available to anyone and be in Manufacturer's container." There are many reasons why we mix our own fuel. Mine is the cost of 60-70% Nitro fuel and the fact that if I mix it myelf, I know what is in it and if the fuel is bad, it's nobodys fault but my own.

The rule stating "Boats may be started in the team pit ara for adjusting and warm up. All talbes in the pit area MUST have prop guards mounted to the table." What's a Prop Guard mounted to a table look like??

"Course to be between 300 and 350 ft by a minimum of 150 ft wide oval" The 300-350' straights are OK but 75' radius turns? Why not go with the course size that is already in use in IMPBA, NAMBA etc?

Tell me about using transponders in boats. Where do they mount? If APRCRA transponder is used, is it issued for that particular boat for the entire race weekend?

Any answers would be appreciated.

The fuel rule is really not enforceable for "fuelie" classes. Just put YOUR fuel in a factory container. Same stuff they would mix for you, except you mixed it. From a Technical standpoint you are using commercially available ingredients.

 

[Marty Davis]

VERY interesting discussion.

Wish this had happened 15 years ago....

Marty Davis

 

[rocketcity]

Here Bill, you forgot this - h34r:

Im taking the wait and see approach myself. There is a race scheduled in Orlando(not far from home) that I plan on spectating at. Lets see how it goes, it looks like the brunt of what runs there will be gas-considering the host club(thats not a poke-just fact) I wont pass judgement until I see it myself. Now if you dont mind- h34r: Cool , ready-LOL.

Andy

Andy, trying to consider the host club, Orlando Culvert Dodgers and say that it probably will be a gas race is very premature. You, and the people that love to race are the ones that promote this great hobby.. If you fail to ENTER, then the majority of boaters entered might be gas..

This year is a good example, their is group of people that keep saying that Orlando is a gas club. You might want to look at what we do to help promote the nitro side.. This years Winter Nats has 20 NITRO classes if I'm correct out of 27.. We have listened to what was asked at the last district meeting and added Sport 60, Sport X, nitro Marathon etc.. As of today, which is the deadline for entries, It looks as though possible 10+ Nitro classes will have to be cancelled because of lack or particiption. Can we not even get 3 BOATS!.

I'll stop there..

 

[Andy Greene]

Brian, while Im not looking for a pissing match with you , I would have to disagree with the club not being mainly gas. Thats a discussion for another day.

'

I more than anyone would LOVE to come over and race. The fact that Im currently out of work and (if you hadn't noticed) am selling everything I own just to eat, makes it a little tough right now. The other factor for me and Im sure some others is the duration of the event. A guy like me that runs 1-2 classes is there for 3 days(without open water) just to run. I have said it before, IF the event where laid out in the same fashion the last Nats here in FLA where laid out, I would come race, low on cash or not. I could come for A specific day, run my heats and go home.

Your right, I'll stop here also..

Andy

 

[Don Ferrette]

"Course to be between 300 and 350 ft by a minimum of 150 ft wide oval" The 300-350' straights are OK but 75' radius turns? Why not go with the course size that is already in use in IMPBA, NAMBA etc?
I take it for granted that the .90cc engine size limit should read .90ci but would like to see this changed to 1.01ci to accommodate all the big block CMB .91- 1.01ci engines. If not changed, Why not??

Obviously the APR/CRA needs some educated input from actual racers. I already know of one site that is signed up for the summer that can no way in hell meet the "course size" criteria. I don't think one of the listed spring race sites can meet it either. They just recently added a couple names of seasoned gas racers to the "advisory board" so maybe someone will see this gaff. h34r:

And I'm still curious as to why the APR/CRA would choose to omit the "TOP FUEL" class of nitro hydro racing- TWINS, with a .90 limit. Seven "open" classes for gas, no clear cut nitro classes at all and 20 different classes of RTR?? So who is whispering sweet nothings in their ears anyway? :blink:

There are plenty of other oddball rules listed-

"At no time may an engine be replaced during any race." Say what?

"All races are to be five (5) laps long. " Maybe that's why the bigger course?

"No radios will be allowed in the pit area." Again- say what?

"Noise levels must not exceed 95dba at any time." What's the measurement criteria? What's the penalty for violation?

"All hulls must be of standard, production type design. (ie: Aeromarine, Insane, Seducer, etc.)" So much for scratch built stuff.

"Add-ons to hulls will not be allowed." So what exactly do they mean here?

"All children MUST be accompanied by an adult at all times." So what age constitutes a child, under 18?

"All races will be started with a two (2) minutes clock. Full and half mills are allowed until 15 sec. to race start. At 15 sec. notice, all drivers must be established in a lane, on the back stretch of the course." For many nitro riggers 15 seconds can easily amount to a lap or better even on their exaggerated course size.

Etc, etc, etc ...........

These rules need alot of work & soon, hopefully that is already occurring. 2008 starts tomorrow and the first APR/CRA race is scheduled in mid February. Think I'm gonna sit back & watch initially as this should get real interesting real quick......... :huh:

 

[vegaskiller73]

A guy like me that runs 1-2 classes is there for 3 days(without open water) just to run. I have said it before, IF the event where laid out in the same fashion the last Nats here in FLA where laid out, I would come race, low on cash or not.

Andy, the amount of heats will be more than what is being run now. Fred mentioned something about 5 heats. 2 Friday, 2 Sat and 1 Sun. Hopefully Fred will come in to answer some of these questions everyone is having.

 

[Scott Norris]

A guy like me that runs 1-2 classes is there for 3 days(without open water) just to run. I have said it before, IF the event where laid out in the same fashion the last Nats here in FLA where laid out, I would come race, low on cash or not.

Andy, the amount of heats will be more than what is being run now. Fred mentioned something about 5 heats. 2 Friday, 2 Sat and 1 Sun. Hopefully Fred will come in to answer some of these questions everyone is having.

I think that would be a VERY good idea. There have been alot of extremely valid questions and comments made on this subject and if Fred wants participation from the Nitro Classes in any numbers, he should take a minute, log on and address the topics.

What is an Off-Shore Class of Boat Hull? What are the requirements and will this class run an oval or will it run a different course??

 

[vegaskiller73]

A guy like me that runs 1-2 classes is there for 3 days(without open water) just to run. I have said it before, IF the event where laid out in the same fashion the last Nats here in FLA where laid out, I would come race, low on cash or not.

Andy, the amount of heats will be more than what is being run now. Fred mentioned something about 5 heats. 2 Friday, 2 Sat and 1 Sun. Hopefully Fred will come in to answer some of these questions everyone is having.

I think that would be a VERY good idea. There have been alot of extremely valid questions and comments made on this subject and if Fred wants participation from the Nitro Classes in any numbers, he should take a minute, log on and address the topics.

What is an Off-Shore Class of Boat Hull? What are the requirements and will this class run an oval or will it run a different course??

I just got off the phone with Fred. He will be in this evening(at work) and do his best to address all questions.

 

[HTV Boats]

One of the things I liked about this hobby-sport in comming over from full size racing was no money involved. That said I have found the same personalities in every form of motorsports I have been involved with. Faces and names different but all the same people. The guy who runs his boat over to the guy who throws his golf clubs in the pond are all here. If self destruction is all we allow ok as long as they keep the damage to themselves. All organizatios are capable of policing themselves. For the other 98% it sure is fun competing with you. It is not neccesarily the money that brings out the behavior.

If Adam can walk away from a race with money ahead great. I wish Fred and Pro racing the best but the money will barely pay expenses if you travel any type of circuit with your crew, who need to be fed too. Guys we finished 3rd today so White Castle here we come. If sponsors come in and TV rights get involved you may see real profeshionals. Again like Marty said where was this years ago? If my classes were run in the Fl races I would enter. They have to start somewhere.

Then again if they are on the same day as the "Tunnel" races I am still off to Charleston for the best competition and 40-60 boat classes. You don't need to pay anyone when you put on that kind of race. So Mike the proof is in the pudding so to speak and amatuer racing triumphs. Adam spend some of that easy cash on a 21 tunnel and see if real competition is better than just showing up with a couple other guys on the right day. Mike will help you set it up. More truth there than people know. Don't take offense Adam and welcome to racing.

Mic

 

[Scott Norris]

One of the things I liked about this hobby-sport in comming over from full size racing was no money involved. That said I have found the same personalities in every form of motorsports I have been involved with. Faces and names different but all the same people. The guy who runs his boat over to the guy who throws his golf clubs in the pond are all here. If self destruction is all we allow ok as long as they keep the damage to themselves. All organizatios are capable of policing themselves. For the other 98% it sure is fun competing with you. It is not neccesarily the money that brings out the behavior. If Adam can walk away from a race with money ahead great. I wish Fred and Pro racing the best but the money will barely pay expenses if you travel any type of circuit with your crew, who need to be fed too. Guys we finished 3rd today so White Castle here we come. If sponsors come in and TV rights get involved you may see real profeshionals. Again like Marty said where was this years ago? If my classes were run in the Fl races I would enter. They have to start somewhere.

Then again if they are on the same day as the "Tunnel" races I am still off to Charleston for the best competition and 40-60 boat classes. You don't need to pay anyone when you put on that kind of race. So Mike the proof is in the pudding so to speak and amatuer racing triumphs. Adam spend some of that easy cash on a 21 tunnel and see if real competition is better than just showing up with a couple other guys on the right day. Mike will help you set it up. More truth there than people know. Don't take offense Adam and welcome to racing.

Mic

Yea I noticed there was no designated class for Tunnel Hulls in the Pro Series. Lots of Tunnels down in Florida. I'll see you in Charleston Mic. Not racing but I wouldn't miss being there!! Class Act Event!!!

 

[vegaskiller73]

If sponsors come in and TV rights get involved you may see real profeshionals.

This is all in the big picture and plans are already in the works. Also there are plans for a concert on Sat nights to benefit a local charity of choice at each race venue. And of course bring more interest from spectators to the hobby/sport.

HTV, I don't see why a class couldn't be made "IF" the entries were there.

 

[Scott Norris]

If sponsors come in and TV rights get involved you may see real profeshionals.

This is all in the big picture and plans are already in the works. Also there are plans for a concert on Sat nights to benefit a local charity of choice at each race venue. And of course bring more interest from spectators to the hobby/sport.

HTV, I don't see why a class couldn't be made "IF" the entries were there.

I'm trying my best to be "Professional" about this subject but "This is exactly the type of Vaugness I am talking about in reference to this Series. If you go to the APRCRA "Race Registration" page on the APRCRA Site, the first thing that is asked for is the race you are registering for, your E-mail address and your APRCRA Membership Number. Who in their right mind is going to spend $100 or even the $50 one time Member registration to enter a race where they don't know if there is even a class for them to run in? The APRCRA Membership should be collected AT THE RACE, at least until they get more than 3 or 4 people entering. Not Before you register and even know if any boats in your class will show up to race against. These things need to be dealt with if this Series is going to go anywhere. I'm really trying NOT to be negative about the Pro Series, but I don't see anything Pro about it yet.

 

[Andy Greene]

A guy like me that runs 1-2 classes is there for 3 days(without open water) just to run. I have said it before, IF the event where laid out in the same fashion the last Nats here in FLA where laid out, I would come race, low on cash or not.

Andy, the amount of heats will be more than what is being run now. Fred mentioned something about 5 heats. 2 Friday, 2 Sat and 1 Sun. Hopefully Fred will come in to answer some of these questions everyone is having.

I was replying to Brian in reference to the Winter-Nationals. But thanks .

 

[Advance_United]

So, when I start to follow the money I come up with a lot of ????? What is the business model for a professional racing series built around toy cars and boats? No one goes into business to lose money. Where is the revenue? In every form of professional motorsport of which I'm aware the revenue comes from legions of race fans, either directly from race tickets, etc. or indirectly by contributing to a sponsor's bottom line. Sometimes it can be very lucrative like NASCAR and F1 or it can be just a nice small business like your local short track.

With very few exceptions, power boat racing has not become professionalized to any degree like automobile racing. I raced APBA Limited Inboards for a period of time and won $ 400.00 once. It was pretty neat but I sure couldn't give up my day job. Also, I can't see how the whole class structure that currently exists in model boating can be supported.

I see that the rules package is built around commercially available products. Is the backer involved in the industry? The web site shows the great and powerful OZ, but who is the man behind the curtain?

 

[Scott Norris]

So, when I start to follow the money I come up with a lot of ????? What is the business model for a professional racing series built around toy cars and boats? No one goes into business to lose money. Where is the revenue? In every form of professional motorsport of which I'm aware the revenue comes from legions of race fans, either directly from race tickets, etc. or indirectly by contributing to a sponsor's bottom line. Sometimes it can be very lucrative like NASCAR and F1 or it can be just a nice small business like your local short track.
With very few exceptions, power boat racing has not become professionalized to any degree like automobile racing. I raced APBA Limited Inboards for a period of time and won $ 400.00 once. It was pretty neat but I sure couldn't give up my day job. Also, I can't see how the whole class structure that currently exists in model boating can be supported.

I see that the rules package is built around commercially available products. Is the backer involved in the industry? The web site shows the great and powerful OZ, but who is the man behind the curtain?

It'll be interesting to see if this question gets answered but, if you enter a race and get paid for coming in 1st, 2nd or 3rd, do you really care where the money originated from?