6s Mono Setup

[Ryan Eades]

Hey all,
Searched through the forum and couldn't quite find an answer to the problems I'm attempting to solve. I'm a newish boater so this may be obvious but I can't figure it out.
So I have an Oxidean Dominator hull (queue the jokes about the great TFL ripoff)
Running a TP4060 1950KV (4092) Motor
ZTW 200A ESC
6S 6500mah 100C Battery
Octura X547 Prop with tip mod

Anyways, the issue I'm having is desired performance. The goal for the boat is high-speed runs (Less than 4 minutes) ive ran the math several times and the calculations estimate just over 100mph with the above setup. Now I'm aware on paper and reality are often farther apart, however, the boat is nowhere near that speed.

Hoping someone can shed some light on what I'm missing here. Temps are decent, it's got plenty of prop and controller on her, what gives?

Thanks

( The silver plate in the below pictures is cooling the battery)

 

[ALLAN YUEN]

Nice mono. Forget to put float foam inside

 

[HTV Boats]

Hate to break anyone's bubble but you have been sold a "bill of goods", No pun intended. Your short on motor (power) ESC and prop. 4 minutes is not going to happen with speeds over 75mph. 1950 is a SAW kv where you make 2-4 passes. Get down to 1300-1500 kv's and play with props and setup and enjoy what you have and learn. Ask questions and take advise from people who race and do time trials. OSE would get you more info.
Mic

 

[RaceMechaniX]

Mic is spot on with his assessment. A SAW mono especially a 100mph mono should only be capable of 3-4 runs max before thermal meltdown. Trust me I know!

For a SAW Q mono you are going to need an honest 400-450A controller. There are very few available and the only one you can easily get your hands on today is the Castle XLX2. The 200A ZTW controller is your Achilles heal that I can see.

A 4060 motor is likely not going to have enough grunt to get there but could if you keep the boat light. A 4070 would be better.

In regards to batteries, you really need to run 2P in Q and below to support the 400A+ current draw. I have done a lot of battery testing and no single manufacture can deliver an honest 100C pack. That's all marketing BS. I would highly recommend purchasing a battery ESR meter if you want to get serious so you can test your own cells. I strongly recommend the Wayne Giles Gen II ESR checker. Most are in the 40-50C range when properly heated. It's not only the chemical construction, but the mechanical construction that becomes the limiting factor. Specifically the tabs in the cells cannot push 300A even though the chemistry will. Hence running a pair of 3300mAh packs instead of a single 6500mAh will result in better peformance as the current is split between two packs and the tabs can handle 200A instead of 400A.

Are you running a battery cooling plate? That is generally the opposite of what you want for a SAW mono. You want to prewarm the batteries to 100F before running for optimum results. Cooling them only hurts and if you need to cool them because they are getting too hot while running then you are overloading them.

 

[Ryan Eades]

Hate to break anyone's bubble but you have been sold a "bill of goods", No pun intended. Your short on motor (power) ESC and prop. 4 minutes is not going to happen with speeds over 75mph. 1950 is a SAW kv where you make 2-4 passes. Get down to 1300-1500 kv's and play with props and setup and enjoy what you have and learn. Ask questions and take advise from people who race and do time trials. OSE would get you more info.
Mic

Really appreciate that information Mic,
I suppose I have been sold. Didn't realize how much power is required to make stuff happen, it looks like I'm going over to MGM and LMT.

 

[Ryan Eades]

Mic is spot on with his assessment. A SAW mono especially a 100mph mono should only be capable of 3-4 runs max before thermal meltdown. Trust me I know!

For a SAW Q mono you are going to need an honest 400-450A controller. There are very few available and the only one you can easily get your hands on today is the Castle XLX2. The 200A ZTW controller is your Achilles heal that I can see.

A 4060 motor is likely not going to have enough grunt to get there but could if you keep the boat light. A 4070 would be better.

In regards to batteries, you really need to run 2P in Q and below to support the 400A+ current draw. I have done a lot of battery testing and no single manufacture can deliver an honest 100C pack. That's all marketing BS. I would highly recommend purchasing a battery ESR meter if you want to get serious so you can test your own cells. I strongly recommend the Wayne Giles Gen II ESR checker. Most are in the 40-50C range when properly heated. It's not only the chemical construction, but the mechanical construction that becomes the limiting factor. Specifically the tabs in the cells cannot push 300A even though the chemistry will. Hence running a pair of 3300mAh packs instead of a single 6500mAh will result in better peformance as the current is split between two packs and the tabs can handle 200A instead of 400A.

Are you running a battery cooling plate? That is generally the opposite of what you want for a SAW mono. You want to prewarm the batteries to 100F before running for optimum results. Cooling them only hurts and if you need to cool them because they are getting too hot while running then you are overloading them.

Excellent advice here, I do appreciate it.
As I responded to Mic, I grossly underestimated what it would take to get there. To me 200A is a ton, never had a controller that big but I digress. So would you recommend just going for an MGM/LMT setup? I've done a little poking around on that end of things, don't know what motor to get, but seems like leaps and bounds above what I currently have. Would you recommend an HV setup? like stepping up to 8s 2p I've been told that's what id need but seems like I've been misled around quite a bit so that's up for debate.
The 4 min was an estimation based on current runs. ill shorten that way down. And got it ill ditch the cooling plate, I installed it because the batteries were getting wicked hot ( not puff territory) but really close.
Again thank you for all the details, I know this stuff is kind of dark magic.
-Ryan

 

[RaceMechaniX]

Ryan,

What is your goal? Do you want a 100mph mono? For fun via GPS or for an official record? Are you willing to completely swap out the power system? Or use what you have and get the most out of it? Are you will to write off the entire boat trying to hit 100mph or do you want some security in recovery?

You do not need a MGM and Lehner motor which is close to the high end. You can run TP and Castle as I suggested which is half the cost. The batteries and class you want to run will have a bigger impact on selection.

A 100mph mono is a great challenge, but will take a lot of trial and error plus potential for a lot of destroyed hardware.

 

[HTV Boats]

I am not an electronics expert but know enough to get myself in trouble. What I do know for a fact is how to burn up thousands of dollars trying to set records. As for MGM I have had 5 of their controllers and nothing that held up. Again, I abuse things beyond normal limits. The recent Castle offerings are a breath of fresh air for high performance FE boats. There may be some better ESC's out there but bang for the buck stay with Castle. Tyler can put you in a Lehner but even he recommends a TP to start. In my mind I rather have few motors and a selection of KV to find what works best with the props that work on your hull. Then step up to the ultra expensive motor. The Castle data logger is invaluable in the process.
Mic

 

[properchopper]

Ryan,

Welcome !

What you're missing is a dose of reality. Nothing to worry about - you may likely have been misled although you seem open minded and willing to hear from those that have been in this for some time. FWIW take a look at some of the world's best FE competitors going for world records with incredibly engineered, cost-no-object equipment, Notice the fun they're having while looking for the speed you're going for with a production hull and nice but struggling equipment :



Here's Ralf from Europe going for a WR.

 

[Ryan Eades]

Ryan,

What is your goal? Do you want a 100mph mono? For fun via GPS or for an official record? Are you willing to completely swap out the power system? Or use what you have and get the most out of it? Are you will to write off the entire boat trying to hit 100mph or do you want some security in recovery?

You do not need a MGM and Lehner motor which is close to the high end. You can run TP and Castle as I suggested which is half the cost. The batteries and class you want to run will have a bigger impact on selection.

A 100mph mono is a great challenge, but will take a lot of trial and error plus potential for a lot of destroyed hardware.

I suppose I should have highlighted the goals first.
Not looking for records or anything near competitive. To be frank, I spent a ton on this hull and want to get the most out of it speed-wise. I'd like a 100mph capable boat to run when I need a little excitement away from stock class gas mono. I will take your advice on the 4070/Castle setup. A lot more reasonable. Not concerned about adhering to class rules, just want a missle that scares the crap out of me from time to time.

Thanks again,
-Ryan

 

[Ryan Eades]

I am not an electronics expert but know enough to get myself in trouble. What I do know for a fact is how to burn up thousands of dollars trying to set records. As for MGM I have had 5 of their controllers and nothing that held up. Again, I abuse things beyond normal limits. The recent Castle offerings are a breath of fresh air for high performance FE boats. There may be some better ESC's out there but bang for the buck stay with Castle. Tyler can put you in a Lehner but even he recommends a TP to start. In my mind I rather have few motors and a selection of KV to find what works best with the props that work on your hull. Then step up to the ultra expensive motor. The Castle data logger is invaluable in the process.
Mic

Thanks Mic,
I will take that advice. The only reason I was hesitant was they don't seem to have the currents of the controller posted ( maybe it's hidden somewhere) but now that I hear it recommended ill grab a hydra when it comes out. Recommendations on prop? and I'm still a little confused about the battery situation. 2p setup makes sense, so I'm looking for a high current setup. Not HV. Let me know if I got that right or not.
Again, I appreciate the feedback.
-Ryan

 

[Ryan Eades]

Ryan,

Welcome !

What you're missing is a dose of reality. Nothing to worry about - you may likely have been misled although you seem open minded and willing to hear from those that have been in this for some time. FWIW take a look at some of the world's best FE competitors going for world records with incredibly engineered, cost-no-object equipment, Notice the fun they're having while looking for the speed you're going for with a production hull and nice but struggling equipment :



Here's Ralf from Europe going for a WR.

Thank you for that Tony,
Yes, I agree reality check needed. I am aware of what tends to happen when going at this kind of speed. Shoot the boat right now is almost taking flight at around the high 70s. However, like I replied above this hull was just too expensive to settle for "acceptable" Id like to get the most out of it and see if it's really up to the job of what I can throw at it. Like they say, ain't nothing tighter than stripped.

Thanks,
-Ryan

 

[RaceMechaniX]

Ryan,
Let's assume you want to get close to a hundred and you want to stick with the 4060 for now and don't care about a specific class. I would recommend sticking with the 1950kv 4060 TP motor and switch to 8S1P to keep the boat lighter, increase RPM to make power and reduce current draw. Get yourself a Castle XLX2 Hydra when they come out at the end of the month. Order some decent 4S cells that you can pair up in series to make an 8S pack. I like the Roaring Top 70C 5500mAh packs as the best balance of cost and power. The RT 5100mAh 80C cells are my personal favorite for SAW in addition to the Dinogy Ultra Graphene 2.0 cells. I have had a lot of success with Octura X series 3 blade props for SAW mono's. They are smooth and low lift. You will likely need hardened props, but you can try a standard S&B prop first. I would start with a X447/3, X450/3, X646/3, X452/3. Those props should get you in the high 80's to mid 90's depending on how well the setup works.

Be prepared for carnage. crashing a mono at these speeds is brutal. Make sure you have lots of floatation and the floatation is secured. put straps on the batteries and zip tie the controller in place. Buy a heating pad or heated cooler to warm your batteries to 100-110F before running.

I recommend 2P for Q and below since we can get 6S packs easily. It's not easy to find 8S packs unless you wire two 4S packs together. At the 8S level you can run a single parallel configuration if you keep the boat light. As a counter argument: If you swapped the 4060 for a 5670 195kv motor you might want 2P as you doubled the power the motor can output. The controller can still manage this but the cells will fail quickly in a 1P.

 

[Ryan Eades]

Ryan,
Let's assume you want to get close to a hundred and you want to stick with the 4060 for now and don't care about a specific class. I would recommend sticking with the 1950kv 4060 TP motor and switch to 8S1P to keep the boat lighter, increase RPM to make power and reduce current draw. Get yourself a Castle XLX2 Hydra when they come out at the end of the month. Order some decent 4S cells that you can pair up in series to make an 8S pack. I like the Roaring Top 70C 5500mAh packs as the best balance of cost and power. The RT 5100mAh 80C cells are my personal favorite for SAW in addition to the Dinogy Ultra Graphene 2.0 cells. I have had a lot of success with Octura X series 3 blade props for SAW mono's. They are smooth and low lift. You will likely need hardened props, but you can try a standard S&B prop first. I would start with a X447/3, X450/3, X646/3, X452/3. Those props should get you in the high 80's to mid 90's depending on how well the setup works.

Be prepared for carnage. crashing a mono at these speeds is brutal. Make sure you have lots of floatation and the floatation is secured. put straps on the batteries and zip tie the controller in place. Buy a heating pad or heated cooler to warm your batteries to 100-110F before running.

I recommend 2P for Q and below since we can get 6S packs easily. It's not easy to find 8S packs unless you wire two 4S packs together. At the 8S level you can run a single parallel configuration if you keep the boat light. As a counter argument: If you swapped the 4060 for a 5670 195kv motor you might want 2P as you doubled the power the motor can output. The controller can still manage this but the cells will fail quickly in a 1P.

Thanks so much for this Tyler,
I now have a clear vision of what needs to be done. I'll step up to the 4070 as that's the largest diameter can that will fit in the boat, what KV do you recommend? OSE has a 1700kv in stock I figure will work well with the additional voltage of 8s. I'll go ahead and order 2 4s packs as you recommended and get the hydra. I have a little faith in the carbon hull to withstand a crash but the keyword is a little. ill make sure to fill the boat up with pool noodles!
I'm very excited to see where this goes, again I cannot thank you enough. I'm a younger boater and this information is priceless.

-Ryan

 

[RaceMechaniX]

Ryan,

Fortunately you can upgrade the ESC and batts first and see where you get. Then you can just replace the motor and keep the ESC and batts the same. I prefer the Delta winds, so the 5D is a good choice at 1700kv but you will need to prop up a little.

The Castle logged data is your best tuning aide besides your eyes. Start with smaller props and work you way up checking temps and current draw.

 

[Mike Hughes]

The biggest problem with monos is splitting the deck off of the bottom. If you dont have things tied down, you not getting it back.
Mike

 

[John Finch]

The Castle xlx2 that Tyler recommended is in my opinion the ONLY esc that will give you what you need. I went through several different controllers before asking Tyler what to buy and bought two of the xlx2 controllers he recommended and never looked back. They are the bomb! Also found boat weight to be an absolute key to going the speeds you are looking for. Or better said: the lack of weight is the key to high speed saw runs. I wasted about $3,000 this year on saw gear but just had to chalk it up to experience. Also had to learn how to heat treat props because I was throwing blades one right after the other. Breaking a saw record is awesome but you really need to pay your dues in money and time. Mostly TIME at the pond. Me and my buddy Steve have been recently paying our dues working on the electric saw monos this year and we are very hopeful to see it all come to fruition next year at record trials. Good luck with your goal and listen to the people like Tyler who have "been there done that." It will save you money and time.